Is US Becoming a Third World Country?

US debt isn't that high actually... compare US debt to GDP on a percentage basis over time.

We've been much higher... It always goes up when we go to war.

 

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The difference is that portion of that debt owed to the rest of the world is MUCH higher...and increasing rapidly. The only reason why the US hasn't fallen into a depression is because her unsustainable twin deficits are being financed by other nations.

 

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No... US debt is at about 65 percent... that's not unusal. You can't look at raw numbers, you have to look at things in proportion. Most nations have debt around 55 percent so 65 isn't a big deal. Furthermore, the US has a very strong economy, good growth, and nearly monopolizes a few industries by virtue of its technology alone. We're in no danger of defaulting on any debts and are in much better shape then most of the world... including europe in case you think I'm comparing the US to shotty third world economies.


If you have any doubt, then look at the tables... put the numbers in relation to our GDP and compare that to other countries. I can refer you to two or three sites if you like.

 

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No... US debt is at about 65 percent... that's not unusal.

I didn’t even mention anything about the percentage of debt to the GDP, I am talking about how much American assets are being held overseas, read properly or don’t say anything at all.

Furthermore, the US has a very strong economy, good growth, and nearly monopolizes a few industries by virtue of its technology alone. We're in no danger of defaulting on any debts and are in much better shape then most of the world... including europe in case you think I'm comparing the US to shotty third world economies.

Ah yes the façade of growth, the US is not in good shape at all. If you haven’t noticed the US has a current account deficit in excess of $650 billion and growing, I assume since you all there is to know about economics you can understand the gravity of this situation. Europe is actually in better shape because it can pay its way, and not only that has been gobbling up American assets, along with China and the gang. Although Europe’s economy has slowed, fundamentally it is not doing badly in comparison to the United States, per annum your economy adds another $1 trillion worth of debt, and much of that to the rest of the world. The greatest threat to the US economy isn’t if other nations will call on US debt, the greatest threat is if other nations just stop supporting a fundamentally weak economy. I know what you will do, show me figures about how high American GDP per capita is, and how the economy is growing at 4% per annum…all part of the façade. The growth in the US economy is based on borrowing not real economics.

If you have any doubt, then look at the tables... put the numbers in relation to our GDP and compare that to other countries. I can refer you to two or three sites if you like.

Please…I am certain I have 100x more information on economics then you…I know what there is to know…I doubt you do.

 

Ohhhhh.... sweet innocence....
Look below the carpet.......

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I discarded the point as it's irrelevant. Again, I ask how much you actually know about economics. Stressing that point tells me that it can't be much. What can said foreign powers do with our debt that should make me nervous? They have US federal bonds. The worst they could do is sell them, which wouldn't hurt us at all. They can't demand payment until the bonds come do and that payment is made in US dollars. The same thing would happen no matter who owned them.

Again, nothing huge. You have to keep things in proportion to the size of the US economy and federal budget as a whole. Look at US debt in proportion to these factors over time and you'll notice that we're just fine.

Actually, Europe has no less debt in proportion to the size of its various economies then the US does. Furthermore, we have INTERNATAIONAL trade. They buy some of our assets, we buy some of theirs. US business has huge investments in china and in Europe, just as those powers have investments in us. This is nothing to be worried about. It is a symbol of our close economic relationship, which is more healthy then the protectionism you seem to advocate.

We have a 12 trillion dollar economy. Stop citing huge numbers like you understand them. Put things into proportion or you'll just confuse yourself.

As to debt to the rest of the world... why is this bad that we sell our debt to them? Who cares? They're US federal bonds... they're practically used like money by many a government around the world. China for instance has a lot of it. They use it to store the government's budget. It's a good store of value, is easily traded, and there is lots of it. There is nothing sinister about it.

Right there you're showing me that you don't know what you're talking about. The US debt is in BONDS and can't be called upon till they come due. We pay those bonds off and we're in no danger of falling short. We've been in far far more debt in the past.

The economy is based upon our business which isn't the same thing as our government. Our business isn't in unusual debt and the growth is very real. I could note that our unemployment is less then half of what it is in Germany, but you'll likely ignore that

A false and hollow bit of posturing on your part. You've demonstrated a pathetic lack of understanding of just about everything you've discussed thus far. I honesty can't believe you think you're fooling anyone with this nonsense. Anyone with even a highschooler’s grasp of economics knows you're talking out of your ass.


Anyway, I'm just citing this stuff for your general education so that you don't make a fool of yourself for the next person you pretend in front of.

Good luck to you then...

Love and Peace, Karmashock.

 

I discarded the point as it's irrelevant.

Without explaining why…thus the only reason why its “irrelevant” is because you don’t have a explanation for it.

What can said foreign powers do with our debt that should make me nervous? They have US federal bonds. The worst they could do is sell them, which wouldn't hurt us at all. They can't demand payment until the bonds come do and that payment is made in US dollars. The same thing would happen no matter who owned them.

They also have billions in treasury bills that can indeed be called upon at any time, forgot about that eh you economic genius? Again like I said before the biggest fear for u should not be whether or not those countries will call their loans back at any time, but if those countries simply stop supporting the US twin deficits. But why should I explain simple logic, and economic theory to Adam Smith over here?

Again, nothing huge. You have to keep things in proportion to the size of the US economy and federal budget as a whole. Look at US debt in proportion to these factors over time and you'll notice that we're just fine.

Nothing huge? The longer the US has the deficit the more she will be paying in interest rates to creditors, those creditors being outside the United States. The IMF has recently stated the twin US deficits are the biggest threat to the world economy:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/3188495.stm
http://www.pwcglobal.com/extweb/newcoatwork.nsf/docid/9D99B1B5541765A885256E37006FB82D

The US will experience a slowdown if not even depreciation in living standards due to the higher interests that will have to happen to bring the US dollar up to help pay for these huge outstanding debts that now amount to $4 trillion, which is about 36% of the US economy owed to foreigners, I suspect the highest proportion since 1913. But again you know all…

Actually, Europe has no less debt in proportion to the size of its various economies then the US does.

But it has massive current account surpluses to finance that debt, the US does not.

Furthermore, we have INTERNATAIONAL trade.

The EU exports more then the United States.

They buy some of our assets, we buy some of theirs.

By the looks of it, the net relationship is only one way. They are buying u up.

US business has huge investments in china and in Europe, just as those powers have investments in us.

TNC’s can hardly be considered American, they are not working for the United States’ best interests, they working on their own.

This is nothing to be worried about. It is a symbol of our close economic relationship, which is more healthy then the protectionism you seem to advocate.

Well ppl who have a modicum of an idea about economics do worry…

We have a 12 trillion dollar economy. Stop citing huge numbers like you understand them. Put things into proportion or you'll just confuse yourself.

Fine, since the US current account deficit is growing faster then the GDP, eventually if this situation doesn’t correct itself, US debt would be in excess of 100%, like Israel is today. Stop being a dick and think.

As to debt to the rest of the world... why is this bad that we sell our debt to them? Who cares? They're US federal bonds... they're practically used like money by many a government around the world.

Well again need I point to treasury bills, and when those bonds do come to bear on the US economy I doubt the US will actually be able to pay for them without taking out another loan…just like Argentina until you get into a spiral.

Right there you're showing me that you don't know what you're talking about. The US debt is in BONDS and can't be called upon till they come due.

LOL you’re the idiot not me…its obvious you never heard of Treasury Bills…STFU you idiot (I think my tone is justified).

We pay those bonds off and we're in no danger of falling short. We've been in far far more debt in the past.

You are assuming you can pay those bonds back…

The economy is based upon our business which isn't the same thing as our government. Our business isn't in unusual debt and the growth is very real. I could note that our unemployment is less then half of what it is in Germany, but you'll likely ignore that

Your unemployment rate is low, but one of the reasons why is because wages are much lower in the United States, the types of jobs aren’t intensive (I mean do you really consider Wal-Mart jobs a sign of success?), and the jobs that actually make money are being shipped overseas, or due to high productivity growth being shrunk. I read a recent article on unemployment in Germany…5 million unemployed the highest since the Great Depression…so the only thing I ignore is idiocy.

A false and hollow bit of posturing on your part. You've demonstrated a pathetic lack of understanding of just about everything you've discussed thus far. I honesty can't believe you think you're fooling anyone with this nonsense. Anyone with even a highschooler’s grasp of economics knows you're talking out of your ass.

Said the mirror…

Anyway, I'm just citing this stuff for your general education so that you don't make a fool of yourself for the next person you pretend in front of.

I’ll let you live with your pseudo-intellectuality…since that is what makes America, America…pretentiousness.

 

I did explain it in detail. There is no rational reason as to how you could have missed it.

I'm done with arguing with you. You're a pathetic posturing child. Get a decent education or learn to listen.

Until then, I'd sooner argue with a muppet.

Love and peace, Karmashock.

 

Oh really? Whatever happened to the $36,000 per year wage!?!?...

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http://www.bls.gov/cew/state2002.txt
http://stats.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t16.htm

And for CEOs....
http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000039&refer=columnist_crystal&sid=a2lC5UYqKkSI

 

those are really good numbers... most of europe makes about 10,000 dollars less a year per capita... though they obviously don't have to pay for many of the things we do.

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Oh! Do you do something!?!?

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such as pay for my doctors? Yes, I do.

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Oh really? Whatever happened to the $36,000blahblah...

Let's look at this more rationally shall we, let's not depend on websites for all our answers let's do the math:

GDP per capita United States 2003:37,800
GDP PPP United States 2003: 10,990,000,000,000
Income distribution in the United States:
Poorest 0-20: 5.2
20-40: 10.5
40-60: 17.2
60-80: 22.4
Richest 80-100: 46.4

20% of the United State’s population:

Gross population 2004: 293,027,571
20%: 58,605,514

Let’s do the math shall we:

Poorest 0-20: 5.2
GDP:571,480,000,000/Pop:58,605,514= $9,751 per capita (25% of national GDP PPP per capita)
Closest national comparison:Trinidad and Tobago $ 9,500

I shall continue to rape you and Mr.k’s arguments now:

20-40: 10.5
GDP:1,153,950,000,000/Pop:58,605,514= $19,690 per capita (52% of national GDP PPP per capita)
Closest national comparison: Israel $ 19,800

40-60: 17.2
GDP: 1,890,280,000,000/ Pop: 58,605,514= $32,254 per capita (85% of national GDP PPP)
Closest national comparison:Switzerland $ 32,700

60-80: 22.4
GDP: 2,461,760,000,000/ Pop: 58,605,514 =$42,005 per capita (111% of national GDP PPP)
Closest national comparison: Norway $ 37,800

Richest 80-100: 46.4
GDP: 5,099,360,000,000/ Pop: : 58,605,514 =$87,011 per capita (203% of national GDP PPP)
Closest national comparison:Luxembourg $ 55,100

So while you (truthseeker [keep looking]) and the uber idiot Karmashock believe all the bullshit you read about GDP growth or consumption neither of you seem to know shit all…so both of you STFU. So let's see 60% of the US population live BELOW the average national income...yah, great economy.

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Also is the US a thrid world nation...at least to 58 million people.

 

OH NOES THE US HAS A LOWER CLASS!!! *runs around screaming in big sarcastic circle, which a study of geometry will tell you is very hard to do and only theoretical*

The US remains the world's richest, most productive, and most innovative economy... per capita. Are the lower tiers hurting? That part of our economy is in trouble. The biggest reason is that they are being out competed by foreign labor markets. Our top tier has little to no competition. Our bottom tier has to compete with about a billion people that are willing to do the same job for less. That said, that part of our economy has NEVER had much money and we’ve not been considered a ‘third world’ nation since about the 1830s. Honestly, I don’t if you’re joking with these statements as they’re outright ridiculous.


There are three solutions to the problem if you think it needs to be fixed.

One - protectionism... just make it clear that companies must use local labor and put high tariffs on imports.

Two - state socialism... basically take the money at the top and give it to the people at the bottom.

Three - change the education system such that people in the lower groups have something to offer local business that can't be found outside the country or at least makes it just as profitable.

Each of these solutions has consequences, which might bring about problems bigger then the one they’re ultimately supposed to fix.

Now, even if none of the above happens, we'll not be a third world country. However, you'll favor the first two options in varying degrees... I'm strongly against them as I think they'll take away one of the US's key domestic assets. So three or a theoretical four is going to have to be my choice.
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Calling the global hegemonic power a “third world nation” is just flat out short bus, wear a helmet so you don’t hurt yourself when you go to the bathroom - retarded. If you persist in this idiotic argument, then I’m going to just give you a bib and leave you to your sputtering.

Love and peace, Karmashock.

 

OH NOES THE US HAS A LOWER CLASS!!! *runs around screaming in big sarcastic circle, which a study of geometry will tell you is very hard to do and only theoretical*

Yes the US does, contrary to what you two have been blabbing about. 174 million Americans live below the average income of the country, that is not a country that imo is first world, it’s a poor country who just happens to have more money then Brazil.

The US remains the world's richest, most productive, and most innovative economy... per capita.

For now…it will be surpassed soon enough.

Are the lower tiers hurting? That part of our economy is in trouble. The biggest reason is that they are being out competed by foreign labor markets. Our top tier has little to no competition. Our bottom tier has to compete with about a billion people that are willing to do the same job for less. That said, that part of our economy has NEVER had much money and we’ve not been considered a ‘third world’ nation since about the 1830s. Honestly, I don’t if you’re joking with these statements as they’re outright ridiculous.

What is to be joking about let the numbers speak for themselves, 58 million Americans are living at 3rd world standards, or living 35,163,308 are living below the poverty line, the only reason why these people aren’t starving is due to government intervention, and the situation is getting worse and worse and worse, more and more wealth is being concentrated in the top levels of society, this is again socially unsustainable. If the lower tiers of your economy is in trouble, since they are the foundations of it, then the whole thing is rotten.

Now, even if none of the above happens, we'll not be a third world country. However, you'll favor the first two options in varying degrees... I'm strongly against them as I think they'll take away one of the US's key domestic assets. So three or a theoretical four is going to have to be my choice.

174 million people is too much for any modern economy to intergrate in high wage economy, and the evidence suggests that its getting worse, and worse, less people have benefits, and an increasing strain on the government, while the genius president is cutting taxes which has not created the desired benefits, and the deficit is a rich man’s subsidy.

Calling the global hegemonic power a “third world nation” is just flat out short bus, wear a helmet so you don’t hurt yourself when you go to the bathroom - retarded. If you persist in this idiotic argument, then I’m going to just give you a bib and leave you to your sputtering.

The US is not a third world nation because of government intervention and massive redistribution of wealth, compared to other G7 nations, America is pathetic. Since this president wants to get rid of the New Deal, the massive inequality of wealth of the early 20th century where millions lived in third world standards of living may be coming back again. The US is losing its grip on power at an alarming rate. You see what I consider a first world nation is a nation that doesn’t have 58 million of its people making $9,700 a year, do you?

 

Undecided, you are goofy. The US doesn't have 58 million people earning $9700/year. Don't put too much faith in making an arguement that the US is not a first world nation by mixing income distribution and per capita income statistics. The US does have about 12.5 percent or 35.9 million (2003) of it's population living in poverty and another 4 percent living in near poor conditions(100 to 125 percent of the poverty threshold). The poverty threshold ranges from $9393 for single, to $18810 for a family of four. You can find this information by doing a google search.

Now yes while the US debt is a legitimate concern, at least get the numbers right. The US debt is about 7.4 trillion dollars. Of this, the public debt is $4.3 trillion and the intragovernment debt (social security, medicare trust funds) is $3.1 trillion. The deficit for Fiscal year 2004 was $412.3 billion for unified budget (this includes a $4 billion postal service surplus and a $151 billion social security surplus). You can get this information from the financial report of the US government. Notice these numbers differ by quite a large amount from your claim of a $650 billion dollar deficit and adding $1 trillion in debt per year. So where are you getting your numbers from. Are you just making stuff up. While we are all impressed that you can figure out per capita income from GDP 2003 and census figures from 2004, hmm.... Additionally, of the Public debt, about $1.9 trillion is held by foreign intrests as of fiscal year 2004 (about 43% of the $4.3 trillion).

Simply because economic growth slows or simply because some members of the population lives in poverty, doesn't mean that the US is a 'third world country' any more than you could say that the European Union or Canada or Japan is 'third world'.

 

Are you drunk or what!?

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Did you see who started this thread........

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You are arguing with the wrong person.....

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He can't argue with me anymore... I don't argue with muppets.

 

Actually TS, gets bored of arguing with crapofbushonomics.

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Funny that he was calling the guy arguing for the other side, such as it is, 'drunk.'

But perhaps I've misinterpreted the situation.


call me on it, if that's the case, otherwise the assumption stands.

Love and Peace, Karmashock.