Is Time Real? What Is Time?

Discussion in 'General Science & Technology' started by Kaiduorkhon, Mar 12, 2007.

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  1. superluminal . Registered Senior Member

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    I still want to pick 23. Why isn't 23 on your list? 23 is between just two and infinity. So, I pick 23.

    :bravo:
     
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  3. zephir Banned Banned

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    Nope, the most close to 23 is the "4) Just two" answer.
    You're wrong by every criterion...:m:
     
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  5. superluminal . Registered Senior Member

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    Prove it. I think I'm right by my own infallible criterions. I counted at least 23 bubbles in your last animation. So there. :frust:
     
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  7. zephir Banned Banned

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    It's possible, but the time isn't bubble by AWT definition, but the direction normal to density gradients. What else can be said about directions, normal to density gradients inside of foam?
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2007
  8. superluminal . Registered Senior Member

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    So?
     
  9. zephir Banned Banned

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    These directions are formed by pair of opposite vectors usually. Because the surface membranes inside the foam are planparallel and their surface density gradients inbetween are oriented against each other. What does it say about time dimensions inside of our space-time?

    Can we met with the 2nd time dimension in our common life? Or is it just some obstract concept of many mathematicians and one AWT?
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2007
  10. superluminal . Registered Senior Member

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    That they are free-flowing rivers of molten space-time. Yes, molten space-time. Flowing this way and that. Shiny and glittery as they go. To and fro. Throughout the universe. Molten space-time...
     
  11. zephir Banned Banned

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    Don't say, what the reality is. Try to say instead, which testable prediction folows from such insight. Without testable predictions your ideas are just a zephyr wind. It comes and flies away again. Nothing really remains. If you cannot predict anything testable by your explanation, then the explanation of yours are trully useless for me. It cannot be reconcilled with observable reality.
     
  12. superluminal . Registered Senior Member

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    Hmmm...

    It's windy outside now. I'm cold. Where's my beer?
     
  13. zephir Banned Banned

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    Congrats. You just have met with AWT.
     
  14. superluminal . Registered Senior Member

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    How's that old chap?
     
  15. ric0h Registered Member

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    Time is the expansion and forward motion of the universe. Therefore time has a speed many times that of light. Thus time is real.
     
  16. zephir Banned Banned

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    Not exactly, as the time would continue even at the case, the universe expansion would stop right now. But both phenomena are indeed related, just by less trivial way.
     
  17. river-wind Valued Senior Member

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    Instead of there being an entire extra dimension of time, the theory that time has been and is currently slowing down keeps coming up. Studies through the 1800's and the early 1900's, prior to Einstein's revelations, kept suggesting that the speed of light in a vacuum was always constant - but we couldn't explain why. It didn't make sense that if you chased a photon, no matter how close to the speed of *you* got, the photon was still traveling away from you at the speed of light when measured. You could never "catch up" with it, no matter how fast you went.

    Einstein simply started from that confusing point - he assumed that the speed of light was always constant for every observer, and then looked at how would everything else work. His questions took us very far in understanding the universe - the speed of light does appear to be universal across the universe, so we might as well get used to it!

    However, it does not always appear that the rate of time is stable over the *life* of the universe.

    Variable Speed of Light theories have started becoming more common, it seems, most recently the suggestion that the Time dimension is slowly turning into a dimension of space - a process that would eventually lead to time (and all motion) stopping. Plus, it doesn't require the hack that is dark matter/energy.


    http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg19626354.000-is-time-slowing-down.html
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2007
  18. zephir Banned Banned

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    This cannot be true even theoretically. For example, the gravitational lensing works just because the speed of light in vacuum is changing with vacuum density near massive objects and the lensing effect depends on the refraction index change. The contemporary interpretation of relativity is surprisingly short-seeing and one-sided in this point, just because the Aether concept was carefully omitted from mainstream physics before years. As the result, the people aren't accustomed to intepret the relativistic phenomena by optical phenomena of inertial environment even at the case, they're illustrated by such way!

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    It's evident, the classical interpretation of relativity is related to the inner observer perspective, while the quantum mechanics one is based on the outer observer perspective. The AWT is making such understanding quite trivial. The space-time is elastic and we are formed by its standing waves. After then the result of the same observation will depend on the fact, whether the observer is deformed together with the space-time, or not.

    While such perspectives are incompatible from formal point of view, because they're related by reciprocal geometry of T-duality, their intuitive reconciliation is still quite simple. You needn't to understand the formal math of physics to understand, why the relativity and quantum mechanics are mutually incompatible from formal point of view, while they're both just a different look to the same phenomena.

    If the Universe is formed by interior of collapsing black hole, it's quite logical, the density of vacuum increases and the speed of light goes down from perspective of observer, who monitors such process from outside. But the collapse of space-time has even its own internal consequences. For example, the observable matter can be considered as a more dense blob of vacuum, which is more compressed and as such it's collapsing more slowly. In accordance with this it was recently observed, the international iridium prototype suffers dilatation, when compared by optical methods. It means, the effects of Universe expansion are directly observable even in historical time. Such insight renders the Universe as a much more dynamic stuff, then it's considered usually.

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    Because the time is defined by using of Aether density gradients, which are washed (leveled) during Aether condensation, we can really say, the "time disappears from our Universe", as the article linked by you states. The iridium protope not just dilates, it virtualy dissolves in the collapsing vacuum like object falling into black hole. Therefore the Universe expansion can be intepreted like passing of Universe into throat of dark brane or like fall into another, even much more larger and dense black hole.

    From the AWT perspective both expansion of Universe, both dilatation of time, variable speed of light, "red shift" or "tired light" hypothesis are all dual models of the same process. Without consideration of Aether concept we cannot understand so easily, how these models are related mutually.
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2007
  19. zephir Banned Banned

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    It's easy. Because we are using the same light both for the distance, both for the time measurements. Therefore, even if the space-time will be deformed, the same effect will influence both space, both time measurement, so that both effects will compensate mutually. There same result we can expect for every experiment, where the time and distance will be determined by the same waves, which are subject of observation and nothing very strange is about it.

    The common measurements of the surface wave speed at the water surface aren't such kind of experiment, though, because we are using a two waves here: the water wave, which is subject of observation and the light wave, which is serving as a reference wave, mediating the space and time measurement. Unfortunately, during measurements of light speed in vacuum no other reference wave was never used, so you cannot detect any difference in light speed.

    Under respect of the above criterion we can realize the relativistic analogies even at the case of classical waves observations, for example by using of water or ultrasound waves.
     
  20. sekharpal Registered Member

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    Timeless

    TIMELESS

    Today’s scientists are like religious gurus of earlier times. Whatever they say are accepted as divine truths by lay public as well as the philosophers. When mystics have said that time is unreal, nobody has paid any heed to them. Rather there were some violent reactions against it. Here are some examples:
    “G.E. Moore pointed out that if time is unreal then there are no temporal facts: nothing is past, present or future, and nothing is earlier or later than anything else. But, plainly, it is false that there are no temporal facts, for it is a fact that I am presently inscribing this sentence and that my breakfast yesterday preceded my lunch.”
    - Richard M. Gale
    [Book: the philosophy of time, edited by Richard M. Gale, Publisher: Macmillan, 1962, Chapter: Introduction to Section Two, The static versus the dynamic temporal, page 69.]
    “First of all, what can be meant by saying that time is unreal? If we really meant what we say, we must mean that such statements as “this is before that” are mere empty noise, like “twas brillig.” If we suppose anything less than these – as for example, that there is a relation between events which puts them in the same order as the relation of earlier and later, but that it is a different relation – we shall not have made any assertion that makes any real change in our outlook. It will be merely like supposing that Iliad was not written by Homer, but by another man of the same name. We have to suppose that there are no “events” at all; there must be only the one vast whole of the universe, embracing whatever is real in the misleading appearance of a temporal procession. There must be nothing in reality corresponding to the apparent distinction between earlier and later events. To say that we are born, and then grow, and then die, must be just as false as to say that we die, then grow small, and finally are born. The truth of what seems an individual life is merely the illusory isolation of one element in the timeless and indivisible being of the universe. There is no distinction between improvement and deterioration, no difference between sorrows that end in happiness and happiness that ends in sorrow. If you find a corpse with a dagger in it, it makes no difference whether the man died of the wound or the dagger was plunged in after death. Such a view, if true, puts an end, not only to science, but to prudence, hope, and effort; it is incompatible with worldly wisdom, and – what is more important to religion – with morality.”
    - Bertrand Russell
    [Mysticism, Book: religion and science, Publisher: Oxford University Press, 1961.]
    But when scientists have shown that at the speed of light time becomes unreal, these same philosophers have simply kept mum. Here also they could have raised their voice of protest. They could have said something like this: “We will never accept the statement that time is unreal. Then why are you wasting your valuable time, money, and energy by explaining to us as to how this time can become unreal? Are you mad?” Had they reacted like this, then that would have been consistent with their earlier outbursts. But they had not. This clearly indicates that a blind faith in science is working here. Or, perhaps they were awed and cowed down by the scientists. If mystics were mistaken in saying that time is unreal, then why is the same mistake being repeated by the scientists? Why are they now saying that there is no real division of time as past, present and future in the actual world? If there is no such division of time, then is time real, or, unreal? Thus spake Einstein when his lifelong friend Michele Besso died, “Now he has departed from this strange world a little ahead of me. That means nothing. People like us, who believe in physics, know that the distinction between past, present and future is only a stubbornly persistent illusion.” And thus spake scientist Paul Davies, “The most profound puzzle of all is the fact that whatever we may experience mentally, time does not pass, nor there exist a past, present and future. These statements are so stunning that most scientists lead a sort of dual life, accepting them in the laboratory, but rejecting them without thought in the daily life.” [Book: Other worlds, Publisher: J. M. Dent & Sons Ltd., 1980, Prologue, Page 14.] Is this very recent statement made by a scientist that “time does not pass” anything different from the much earlier statement made by the mystics that “time is unreal”?
    Now some scientists are trying to establish that mystics did not get their sense of spacelessness, timelessness through their meeting with a real divine being. Rather they got this sense from their own brain. But these scientists have forgotten one thing. They have forgotten that scientists are only concerned with the actual world, not with what some fools and idiots might have uttered while they were in deep trance. So if they at all explain as to how something can be timeless, then they will do so not because the parietal lobe of these mystics’ brain was almost completely shut down when they received their sense of timelessness, but because, and only because, there was, or, there was and still is, a timeless state in this universe.
    God is said to be spaceless, timeless. If someone now says that God does not exist, then the sentence “God is said to be spaceless, timeless” (S) can have three different meanings. S can mean:
    a) Nothing was/is spaceless, timeless in this universe (A),
    b) Not God, but someone else has been said to be spaceless, timeless here (B),
    c) Not God, but something else has been said to be spaceless, timeless here (C).
    It can be shown that if it is true that God does not exist, and if S is also true, then S can only mean C, but neither A nor B. If S means A, then the two words “spaceless” and “timeless” become as meaningless as the word “brillig” (cited by Russell in his quotation mentioned above). By the word “brillig” we cannot indicate a person, a thing, an action, a property, a relation, or any other thing. Similarly, if S means A, then by the two words “spaceless” and “timeless” we cannot indicate anyone or anything, simply because in this universe never there was, is, and will be, anyone or anything that could be properly called spaceless, timeless. Now the very big question is: how can some scientists find meaning and significance in a word like “timeless” that has got no meaning and significance in the real world? If nothing was timeless in the past, then time was not unreal in the past. If nothing is timeless at present, then time is not unreal at present. If nothing will be timeless in future, then time will not be unreal in future. If in this universe time was never unreal, if it is not now, and if it will never be, then why was it necessary for them to show as to how time could be unreal? If nothing was/is/will be timeless, then it can in no way be the business, concern, or headache of the scientists to show how anything can be timeless. If no one in this universe is immortal, then it can in no way be the business, concern, or headache of the scientists to show how anyone can be immortal. Simply, it is none of their business. So, what compelling reason was there behind their action here? If we cannot find any such compelling reason here, then we will be forced to conclude that scientists are involved in some useless activities here that have got no connection whatsoever with the actual world, and thus we lose complete faith in science. Therefore we cannot accept A as the proper meaning of S, as this will reduce some activities of the scientists to simply useless activities.
    Now can we accept B as the proper meaning of S? No, we cannot. Because there is no real difference in meaning between this sentence and S. It is like saying that Iliad was not written by Homer, but by another man of the same name (Russell). So, if S is true, then it can only mean that not God, but something else has been said to be spaceless, timeless. Now, what is this “something else” (SE)? Is it still in the universe? Or, was it in the past? Here there are two possibilities:
    a) In the past there was something in this universe that was spaceless, timeless,
    b) That spaceless, timeless thing (STT) is still there.
    We know that the second possibility will not be acceptable to atheists and scientists. So we will proceed with the first one. If STT was in the past, then was it in the very recent past? Or, was it in the universe billions and billions of years ago? Was only a tiny portion of the universe in spaceless, timeless condition? Or, was the whole universe in that condition? Modern science tells us that before the big bang that took place 13.7 billion years ago there was neither space, nor time. Space and time came into being along with the big bang only. So we can say that before the big bang this universe was in a spaceless, timeless state. So it may be that this is the STT. Is this STT then that SE of which mystics spoke when they said that God is spaceless, timeless? But this STT cannot be SE for several reasons. Because it was there 13.7 billion years ago. And man has appeared on earth only 2 to 3 million years ago. And mystical literatures are at the most 2500 years old, if not even less than that. So, if we now say that STT is SE, then we will have to admit that mystics have somehow come to know that almost 13.7 billion years ago this universe was in a spaceless, timeless condition, which is unbelievable. Therefore we cannot accept that STT is SE. The only other alternative is that this SE was not in the external world at all. As scientist Victor J. Stenger has said, so we can also say that this SE was in mystics’ head only. But if SE was in mystics’ head only, then why was it not kept buried there? Why was it necessary for the scientists to drag it in the outside world, and then to show as to how a state of timelessness could be reached? If mystics’ sense of timelessness was in no way connected with the external world, then how will one justify scientists’ action here? Did these scientists think that the inside of the mystics’ head is the real world? And so, when these mystics got their sense of timelessness from their head only and not from any other external source, then that should only be construed as a state of timelessness in the real world? And therefore, as scientists they were obliged to show as to how that state could be reached?
    We can conclude this essay with the following observations: If mystical experience is a hallucination, then SE cannot be in the external world. Because in that case mystics’ sense of spacelessness, timelessness will have a correspondence with some external fact, and therefore it will no longer remain a hallucination. But if SE is in mystics’ head only, then that will also create a severe problem. Because in that case we are admitting that the inside of mystics’ head is the real world for the scientists. That is why when mystics get their sense of timelessness from their brain, that sense is treated by these scientists as a state of timelessness in the real world, and accordingly they proceed to explain as to how that state can be reached. And we end up this essay with this absurd statement: If mystical experience is a hallucination, then the inside of mystics’ head is the real world for the scientists.
    H.S.Pal
     
  21. AlexG Like nailing Jello to a tree Valued Senior Member

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    </scroll>
     
  22. krazedkat IQ of "Highly Gifted"-"Genius" Registered Senior Member

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    Anitphon suggested "Time is not a reality, but a concept or a measure."
    He was a smart lad but he lived in a time where science was almost purely philosophical.
    Also, I am sure you are all familar with Newton's 2nd law, right?

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  23. NO1 I Am DARKNESS Registered Senior Member

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