Is this true?

Discussion in 'Science & Society' started by GRO$$, Mar 13, 2002.

  1. Tyler Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,888
    1) Still no info on communism
    2) What ideal democracy statement is that? Who said that? And how about you be honest, is the fact that this is not met the fault of Americans? Or because the very idea is not feasable?
    3) How is George Bush an example?

    Perhaps it's your lack of English that hinders your debating skills, but I would think in any language the art of debate has similar form. You state an opinion, than lay down facts to prove it. That's the way to debate.
     
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  3. TruthSeeker Fancy Virtual Reality Monkey Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    15,162
    Tyler,

    1) No need to talk about communism. It was just an example...
    2) Everyone says that... everyone knows that...
    3)... Oh God...

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    ... George Bush is an asshole elected by the people, by democracy, which is doing lots of dumb things in his own behalf...

    Satisfied?

    I already did all of that...
    What I don't understand is why instead of begin the debate you ask the same question again and again...

    *sights*...

    I'm tired...
    I said everything...
    I can't do nothing if you can't understand.
    If you want, ask someone what he or she thinks about what I wrote...

    Love,
    Nelson
     
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  5. Oyst*R Registered Member

    Messages:
    11
    AP Euro Rox, esp in Frisco

    That's an advantage about living in San Francisco, everyone's open-minded, no teachers shutting u up about "lies". The teachers actually tell u the real stuff behind the events.
    Truthseeker: I like the way you talk. It's hella annnoying how people keep asking you to back it up with facts; you must as well just write an essay. People people, if you don't know what he's talking about, look up the evils of the US government in google. I'm sure u'll find a lot. If I'm bs'ing, come back here and slap me in the face.
    The US government is not ideal democracy. Not everyone votes. Also, only the rich has real power over the gameplay in US. That's not to say that the public has no voice, but not as much as the rich (like corporations and families). Also, the US morality only applies in US, not in foreign policies. Take sweatshops for example. Look up US genocides in third world countries. What's worse is that the government has so much control over the media. Turn on the news and notice the biasism. They ignore and/or condemn real facts about the mistakes of the US government. Also, the US has turned more socialist. That's not to say it's necessarily bad, just that it wasn't what the "founding fathers" intended (BTW these founding fathers weren't so great, and they had many, MANY faults. look it up =D). Look up the 10 planks in google, its a comparison between Marixsm and the US gov't. I know I have this very biased and negative view about the US, but it's a good way to help people realize its faults and improve it.

    Err, the USSR ideaology has very VERY little to do with Marxism. Marxism was a prediction, the people were suppose to start the revolution by themselves. The coup 'de tat (err is that how it's spelled?) is not about the whole of Russia rising up. Also, the society was suppose to be classless. Instead, in the USSR, theres a small ring of elite people, and this makes it a 2-class society.

    Feel free to attack anything in here, but dont be so cruel =D.
     
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  7. Tyler Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,888
    If you haven't noticed, everyone has told you what a bad debater you are.

    I'm questioning how it isn't sinking into your head.

    Now for my proof that you're the dumbest human being alive.

    Dumb-dumb: "That's the ideal democracy. But the democracy put in practice in the US is NOT this democracy.
    The same the old communism in the USSR... "

    - This would imply to me that you believe American Democracy is similar in that it is perverse from ideal democracy as CCCP communism was to ideal communism.

    Tyler: I will sum this up as; can you show us a link between the two? Do you have any evidence

    D.D.: "US democracy is no better than USSR communism. Both were created by awesome people who wanted more equality to people and YOU all turn it into junk"....I WASNT TALKING ABOUT THE ACTUAL USE OF THE TWO, JUST THE IDEOLOGY

    - Now, here's where we get our first trace of stupidity. See, you CLEARLY stated in your first message that you were comparing the PRACTICAL use of the two to the IDEOLOGICAL of the two.

    T: So let me get this straight? You're comparing the original ideological values of each to the actual practice of each? Incidentally, even if you are just talking about the ideological side of the two, you can still prove it as their is much documentation on the ideologies of communism and democracy.

    D.D.: In an ideal democracy eveyrone has their say in every choice! But in American democracy, you just select people to represent you!

    - Now, this is a true statement, but there are two major acts of dumbness in it. Part (1); having everyone one of the 320 million or so Americans vote on EVERY choice is economically impossible. There's a greater chance that I'll create life by cleaning my guitar. Part (2); When I asked you for the second time to show how ideal/practical democracy compares to ideal/practical communism you just showed me the democracy. That's half an answer.

    T: (1) Are you going to show how this links to communism or have you forgetten that that's what I've been asking about this whole time?
    (2) Who said this about Democracy, that EVERYONE should get to vote in EVERY decision?
    (3) How is Bush this way?

    - All are perfectly answerable questions. And if you can read, you'll notice in every one of my posts since my first I have questioned your communist link. But hey, you already knew that, right?

    D.D.: (1) No I don't need to show the communist thing. I have decided that I don't need to answer your question, but rather shall make questions to answer.
    (2) Everyone knows the truth, why don't you?
    (3) Bush is dumb. Do I need proof? I think not.

    And by the way, I have already answered all your questions.

    - Problem the first: THE ONLY FUCKING REASON I ASKED YOU ANYTHING WAS TO SEE YOUR SUPPOSED LINK BETWEEN COMMUNISTS AND DEMOCRACY, NOW YOU SAY YOU DONT NEED TO DO IT?

    Problem the second: How many times is this now that you're telling me that you don't need to prove it because I should already know it? I'm a philosophy student and have been since I was 11. I think I know my political studies pretty well. And I don't remember anyone saying that Democracy means EVERY citizens votes in EVERY decision. Know why? Becuase no one is stupid enough to say that. (Except, of course, you). It is I - M - P - O - S - S - I - B - L - E.

    Problem the third: I may hate Bush, but that doesn't mean he destroys democracy. And even if he does, and some asks you how, the moron's way of doing things (I say moron's because anyone above the level of stupidity reached only by infants and people who have been locked in a dark room their entire life) would be to PROVE their statements with a little evidence.

    Problem the fourth: You say you don't understand why I ask the same question again and again (presumably, the communist one). Well, dumb-dumb, it's because YOU HAVENT FUCKING MENTIONED ANYTHING CLOSE TO A RESPONSE TO MY QUESTION. IF YOU WANT TO LINK TWO THINGS, I ADVISE YOU STATE SOMETHING ABOUT THEM!!!!!!!!


    Once again I have provided a play by play and you'll likely say something like 'I have already answered all your questions' or that I can just 'not see the truth' because I am ignorant. So, you fucking moron, if I'm so ignorant, enlighten me.

    HOW DOES USSR COMMUNIST RELATED TO MARXIST (not even Marxist-Leninist, WHICH IT WAS BASED ON) IDEOLOGY COMPARE TO AMERICAN DEMOCRACY IN RELATION TO IDEAL DEMOCRACY????

    Want my question agian? Cause you've missed it every other fucking time I've written it.

    HOW DOES USSR COMMUNIST RELATED TO MARXIST (not even Marxist-Leninist, WHICH IT WAS BASED ON) IDEOLOGY COMPARE TO AMERICAN DEMOCRACY IN RELATION TO IDEAL DEMOCRACY????

    HOW DOES USSR COMMUNIST RELATED TO MARXIST (not even Marxist-Leninist, WHICH IT WAS BASED ON) IDEOLOGY COMPARE TO AMERICAN DEMOCRACY IN RELATION TO IDEAL DEMOCRACY????

    HOW DOES USSR COMMUNIST RELATED TO MARXIST (not even Marxist-Leninist, WHICH IT WAS BASED ON) IDEOLOGY COMPARE TO AMERICAN DEMOCRACY IN RELATION TO IDEAL DEMOCRACY????

    HOW DOES USSR COMMUNIST RELATED TO MARXIST (not even Marxist-Leninist, WHICH IT WAS BASED ON) IDEOLOGY COMPARE TO AMERICAN DEMOCRACY IN RELATION TO IDEAL DEMOCRACY????

    HOW DOES USSR COMMUNIST RELATED TO MARXIST (not even Marxist-Leninist, WHICH IT WAS BASED ON) IDEOLOGY COMPARE TO AMERICAN DEMOCRACY IN RELATION TO IDEAL DEMOCRACY????

    Enough times, dumb-dumb?
     
  8. Tyler Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,888
    Welcome Oyster. You'll find respect here if you back up what you say with an inch of evidence. So nicely done, I'll say.

    Though, you still in no way answer the original question.

    I maintain: giant 24 foot long, winged giraffe-rhinos with 8 legs and an invicibility cloak live on an inner circle of pluto. I don't need to back this statement up. You should fucking believe it without me giving evidence!

    Name me one ideal democracy? Or one ideal socialist state? Or one ideal communist state? Name me one ideal government? They don't exist. They never existed. Genocides don't stray from ideal democracy by the way. As long as they happen outside the nation. It has never been stated that war would be eliminated through democracy. Although, it has been theorized that global communism would erase war.

    I hate the U.S., by teh way. So don't go thinking your views are not welcome here.

    Wow, you know that Marxism isn't what communist Russia was based on? Wohhhhh, you instintly garner more respect than dumb-dumb.

    Keep in mind, in case everyone forgets in the time it took to read this message: the original question was about how truthseeker said (and I quote), "That's the ideal democracy. But the democracy put in practice in the US is NOT this democracy.
    The same the old communism in the USSR"
    And I wanted to know if he could actually link the two.

    So far, I have found him to either not be able to, not be willing to share his overwhelming genius with us or something else that would prevent him from answering my question.

    Which do you think?
     
  9. Xev Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    10,943
    Hi Oyster.

    I did. Here is what I found

    From 1799.

    Yep, I hate my country now. I utterly despise it.

    More
    Oh sweet merciful God, why do I live in such a horrible country!?

    And more

    I had no idea! I suppose I am just an evil, bad American.

    I almost can't bear to add more

    A farewell address! Nooooooo!
     
  10. Xev Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    10,943
    Look, I love my country. But that dosen't mean I won't criticise it. I will criticise it, mercilessly. But reciting "US is evil, US is evil, US is evil" - where does that get anyone? No fucking where.

    I am a patriot. For me, this means that I want the best for my country, and I am willing to hear of its flaws. But I am also a skeptic, and I want to see evidence of those flaws.

    Bashing the US is easy. I don't know where Nelson is from, but I know that many countrys blame the US for all thier woes. In some ways, they are right. We exacerbated the mess in Central and Soulth America, our treatment of the Palestine situation leaves much to be desired (although recognition of a Palestinian state is a step in the right direction), and our actions in Veitnam and Cambodia are still hurting these countries.

    That being said, little will be done to remedy these situations by sitting around and whining about how evil the US is. Any country would have done badly with the responsibilities we shouldered and still shoulder. Many would have done worse.

    That is just human nature. So bash away, but remember that your worst enemy is not the US. It is you.
     
  11. TruthSeeker Fancy Virtual Reality Monkey Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    15,162
    Oyst*R,

    First, welcome to sciforums!!

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    Second... I'm happy that there's someone awake in this thread. If Tyler tries to change your mind, believe in what your teacher said. You are right. Everything that you said is true. I found it out by myself long time ago. Don't be intimidated by anyone. They don't have no idea... they live in another word...

    Yes... it's very tiring repeat the same thing on and on...

    Tyler,

    I didn't even read your post. I don't have time. Besides that, I know you are only blaming me and pointing out my imperfections, like my bad English. If you can't discuss without personal attacks better not discuss with you at all. Listen to what Oyst*R said. I said the same and continue saying the same. Now I have someone else awaken in this thread. That's really good.

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    Thanks Oyst*R!!

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    Love,
    Nelson
     
  12. Tyler Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,888
    More disrespect shown to me and the others in this forum.

    It appears you can't stand the heat.

    Here's my advise to you: leave and never come back. No one will ever believe you because you refuse to actually debate. Why do you come here anyway? You won't change anyone's mind because you dont show any evidence (or even argue the point in question!), and your mind will never be changed because you don't read posts or listen to evidence or facts. So why come here?

    Oyster is different than you, Oyster uses examples and evidence.
     
  13. Tyler Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,888
    And in my last large post basically all I said was:

    You never answered the original question. Can you answer it now?

    Except I said it MANY times and proved to you in many ways what the original question was.
     
  14. TruthSeeker Fancy Virtual Reality Monkey Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    15,162
    Tyler,

    Many people agree with me and understand what I say... Why only because you I should stop talking...? :bugeye:

    The difference is that you're not intelligent enough to understand my point... I'm losing my time with you because I explain on and on the same thing, giving the same evidences and you can't see it even though it's in front of your eyes.
    I can't continue. If you pay attention in other threads, I have lots of mensages to answer and that people want to listen.

    Good Luck,
    Nelson
     
  15. Tyler Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,888
    You're sooooooo dumb it's amazing me.

    You never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever (how many times shoudl I say it?) came close to even discussing my original question to you. It's shockingly hilarious to me.

    I literally rolled around on the floor laughing for 5 minutes when I read your last message.

    And by the way, in case you havent noticed, oyster is the only person to back you yet.

    Read my last long message. Maybe you'll figure out what my original question was becuase you weren't smart enough to figure out what it was the last 5 times I asked it.

    CAN YOU - IN ANY WAY - LINK THE MODERN DEMOCRACY IN RELATION TO THE IDEAL DEMOCRACY TO USSR COMMUNISM IN RELATION TO IDEAL COMMUNISM????

    That was the original, and still present, question. Now, the last time I asked it you said "no need to bring communism in!" BUT HTAT WAS THE ORIGINAL POINT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Here. Let me quote you seeing as you wont go read my last long post as you're not smart enough to read that much.

    "That's the ideal democracy. But the democracy put in practice in the US is NOT this democracy.
    The same the old communism in the USSR..."

    Then I said: can you show us a link between the two? Do you have any evidence

    Since then you have refused to actually answer my question. Which is amazing.

    Now, before you fucking tell me that you've already proved the stupid question, I suggest you go read my last long post which sums up our entire conversation up to this point. In there you will notice that you have NEVER ONCE mentioned communism. Now, unless you're some kind of miracle worker that can prove a two-sided debate with only discussing the one side, you stil lhave not come close to proving or even discussing my question!!!!!
     
  16. TruthSeeker Fancy Virtual Reality Monkey Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    15,162
    Tyler,

    You can see in other threads that there are LOTS of people that agree with my ideas because they UNDERSTAND when I talk...

    I proved it without Communism. Communism was just a comparison. As the ideal communism created by Markx wasn't applied in the USSR. Instead, a Militaristic Communism was applied. If you read the ideas of Markx, it would be more like "Utopia" then Adam Smith's "The Wealth of Nations"...

    Love,
    Nelson
     
  17. Tyler Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,888
    Okay, how about we take a lesson in English here.

    Tyler: "Can you show how your comment about Communist Russia is the same as American Democracy in relation to their original ideals?"

    Truthseeker: "Communism was just an example, I have proven that without communism."

    No, you moron, that's my question. Can you PROVE this. Do you have EVIDENCE that communism in Russia is the same as democracy in America????

    In the rest of your thread you started a very simpletonistic answer to my question. So I will address it (as that is how one debates).

    'As the ideal communism created by Markx wasn't applied in the USSR.'

    - There is more than one 'ideal' way of doing every kind of political manner. In fact, your good friend Marx (note: no k) WAS NOT the only backing for the beginning of communism in Russia. Leninist-Marxist theory was the beginning of CCCP communism. Then it became Stalinistic as he perversed the theories. Then Mao did it to China.... It goes on and on. The fact is, theories change over time. Democracy has changed over time. Would you like to still be living in a nation where only white heterosexual wealthy males can vote? No? Well that's original Democracy!

    "Instead, a Militaristic Communism was applied"

    - No, not until Stalin. And by that point it was 35 years into communism in Soviet Union. Think how much Democracy has changed over the last 35 years. Hey truthseeker, could Natives vote in 1967? How about gay rights? Were they up there? Will Democracy not change over 35 years?

    If you're trying to prove that the Soviet Union destroyed the original theory of communism, bravo. You've just done the same thing as every human being since Stalin got in power. But if you're saying they did the same to communism that Yanks did to Democracy? In what way? In that both of them have deviated from original theory? That's like saying 1 is different from 24. Anyone on Earth could tell you that. Know why? Because it happens to EVERY political theory.

    "If you read the ideas of Markx, it would be more like "Utopia" then Adam Smith's "The Wealth of Nations"..."

    - Marx didn't invision utopia. That was left to people who believed in a utopian society. Marx's intentions were to bring Russia into the modern world (that is, industrialy), create economic and socioeconomic equality and give the people power. Secondly, as both I and Oyster have said, CCCP communism was not based on Marxism.


    "I have not found any effective method of dealing with the purely irrational people such as Truthseeker, apart from simply ignoring them. I just hope they don’t get their hands on nuclear weapons. Bin Laden was of the same ilk, and his actions have been bad enough."
    - Cris

    "I personally consider Truthseeker to be a master debater. -little laughing sign-"
    - (Q)

    "-Laughing sign-"
    - Goofyfish in response to previous message


    Oyster supports you not having to prove points, that's all. And that America has changed democracy. He also pointed out to you that Marxism is NOT ussr communism. You keep ignoring that. Also, while Oyster may think you don't have to prove your points, you'll notice 99% of us here do not follow that doctrine.

    You continue to ignore my original question.

    Here it is (in case you have forgetten since earlier in this post):

    Do you have EVIDENCE that communism in Russia is the same as democracy in America????

    I ask this question because you said, and I quote: "That's the ideal democracy. But the democracy put in practice in the US is NOT this democracy.
    The same the old communism in the USSR... "

    You will notice that YOU, (YOU YOU YOU YOU YOU) CLEARLY (CLEARLY CLEARLY CLEARLY CLEARLY) make a link between the perversion of Democracy in the U.S. and the Communism in Russia. I AM ASKING - CAN YOU PROVE THIS?

    If you tell me one more time that you can prove it without discussing communism than you have to leave because you don't understand english enough. If you make a comment that links two things, you MUST discuss both to prove the comment.

    If I said 'Apples are like Oranges' and then proved it by saying 'Apples are red!', would you say I proved my point??? I sure as hell hope not.

    And if you use Marxism to prove your point than you need to go read some history as well as politics. Communist Russia WAS NOT based on Marxism.
     
  18. Adam §Þ@ç€ MØnk€¥ Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    7,415
    The way Tyler and Truthseeker go at each other, I suspect they really dig each other. A bit of too-much-denial type flirting maybe?

    Sorry guys, just joking.

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  19. goofyfish Analog By Birth, Digital By Design Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    5,331
    well... "they" do say that opposites attract!

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    Peace.
     
  20. GRO$$ Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    304
    Welcome Oyst*R,
    /agree Oyst*R
    /agree TruthSeeker

    TY

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  21. TruthSeeker Fancy Virtual Reality Monkey Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    15,162
    Tyler,

    Was only a comparation of how ideologies are very bad used...

    Sorry, I have no time for this pointless debate.

    Anything, ask for Oyst*R or GRO$$. They understand what I'm talking about...

    Love,
    Nelson
     
  22. Tyler Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,888
    You made a comment and I asked a question about it.

    You have refused now to discuss your comment.

    God ol' fanatics.
     
  23. GRO$$ Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    304
    Tyler, im sorry, please sexplain what you mean... maybe I havent spent enough time reading through this thread, but I can't grasp what you are saying...
     

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