is there evidence for alien abductions etc.?

Discussion in 'Pseudoscience Archive' started by duendy, Nov 2, 2005.

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  1. Gustav Banned Banned

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    running away so soon?
    are you that desperate to have the last....the last garrulous fit?
    tell me this tho
    if you dont feel that way, then why envy him?
    would it not be logical to assume that you wish to ignore as well?
    and might have similar reasons?

    frankie, do stick around. just for a little while
    hmm pardon. it just occurred to me that you might be having some pressing problems. incontinence? do you have to change those diapers? or perhaps it is those hemorrhoid flaring up again?

    ok then
    be on your way
    and hurry!
     
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  3. Gustav Banned Banned

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    for the record.... the unchallenged rebuttal remains. for posterity and the historical record.

    of course, frankie the hack should not be expected to know anything about that. indeed no. that would really be asking too much of him

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    Last edited: Nov 21, 2005
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  5. Gustav Banned Banned

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    JDawg

    What says that falsification of previous cases has any bearing on a brand new sighting? I would guess that it did not if even the government sponsored Project Blue Book lasted as long as it did. If they just dismissed each case at hand, then they would not have continued for as long as they did. And who does this dismissing? Again, you are merely blaming the scientific community for what people on this board say.

    you did but i am giving up on trying to convince you. go back and read and figure out how i made those inferences from your argument

    We have visual, radar and comm log evidence of encounters with alien UFOs from the space shuttle?

    i set up a fictitious scenario and ask a question. what is so hard about this?

    To answer your question, though, a rendevous with the space shuttle would count, as it would with any other craft. I'd even take witness accounts from astronauts as opposed to some hick from Dewberry telling me that "That there thing there shore wuz from outter SPAYSE!"

    *Although science is not supposed to tolerate vague or double standards, always insist that unconventional phenomena must be judged by a separate, yet ill-defined, set of scientific rules. Do this by declaring that "extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence"-- but take care never to define where the "ordinary" ends and the "extraordinary" begins. This will allow you to manufacture an infinitely receding evidential horizon; i.e., to define "extraordinary" evidence as that which lies just out of reach at any point in time.

    hopefully now you can see the relevance of this quote

    B.S.
    What about the amature radio operators who followed it's progress that night? You call that anecdotal? I'd call that pretty hard evidence.


    you equate a rather elite group in society with joe public?. sorry, but anyone can generate bogus dialogues and put it on the airwaves. funny that this is now hard evidence

    Absolutely. But that would fall under the realm of "extraordinary evidence," bro. That would be beyond huge if NASA were to say that UFOs existed.

    i do not see why it would be necessary. extraordinary evidence has usually been passed off as actual physical objects. i think you are right tho

    Entirely plausible? Based on what? We dont' even know if intelligent life exists elsewhere, and even though it is imagined to be a probability, who said it is "entirely plausible" that they are covering the vast distances required to reach Earth? And on such a consistant basis?

    I would say that while it's possible, it's far from probable.


    i'll get back to you on this when i feel motivated

    That was far from a contradiction, Gustav. I make the point in the first paragraph that nobody can say that they don't actually exist, then state that in a practical sense they don't exist to me. How is that a contradiction? Maybe a poor choise of words, but not a contradiction. In my little world here in Upstate New York, I have no UFOs. No proof, some fuzzy evidence, but no alien UFOs. They could be flying over my apartment right this second, but I am not aware of them.

    still speechless. it ain't important anyway

    If that were anywhere near the truth, I'd believe it. But it's not.

    gut feeling? intuition? got evidence?
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2005
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  7. SkinWalker Archaeology / Anthropology Moderator

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    You can create red-herring arguments about the validity of epistomology and scientific process all you want, but with regard to the topic at hand, you appear unable to support the title question: is there evidence for alien abductions etc.?

    The only there there is evidence for is various mental states of people and their ability to properly interpret what happened. There *is* evidence of sleep paralysis. There *is* evidence that people embellish what they see. There *is* evidence that false memories can be developed. There *is* evidence that hypnosis suggests new memories perhaps more easily than it discovers them. There *is* evidence that people are willing to believe in the fantastic in favor of the prosaic or mundane.

    There is *no* evidence of alien abductions. Claims of recovered "implants" are apparent lies, deceptions, or misunderstandings. Claims of "scars" are spurious and show no forensic relationship to any alleged "alien abductions."

    Certainly they are possible. But as the number and quality of cameras increase, photos of UFOs decrease. Thousands of amateur astronomers are looking up at the sky habitually every night -few report any sightings of UFOs.

    So the answer to the topic title-question is, "no."
     
  8. Gustav Banned Banned

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    the only way anyone can say what this pseudo skeptic said, is if he has examined each and every case. we all know that this to be very unlikely.

    funny how this pseudo skeptic is so willing to be ridiculed
    and so much for the scientific method that he holds so dear

    /rotfl
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2005
  9. SkinWalker Archaeology / Anthropology Moderator

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    McNally et al (2004) found that relative to control participants in their study, those that alleged they were abducted by space aliens scored higher on their questionnaire in measures of dissociation, absorption, and magical ideation. People who score high in these areas typically have rich fantasy lives, believe they experience alterations in consciousness, and endorse unconventional beliefs.

    Clancy et al (2002) found that "those reporting recovered and repressed memories of alien abduction were more prone than control participants to exhibit false recall and recognition [and] [h]ypnotic suggestibility, depressive symptoms, and schizotypic features were significant predictors of false recall and false recognition."

    There are thousands if not millions of people who claim to have been "abducted by space beings." We would expect that the most credible witnesses would be amateur astronomers, but this group does not see space ships that aren't of our own planet. This is from Sky & Telescope:
    There is evidence for the psychology of people. But none for the abduction of them by space beings. There is evidence that people believe in the supernatural, but none that the supernatural (extraterrestrial space ships & alien visitors) hypothesis is real. There is evidence that humans can fantasize. But none that their fantasies are abducting them in the night.


    References

    Clancy S.A.; McNally R.J.; Schacter D.L.; Lenzenweger M.F.; Pitman R.K. (2002) Memory distortion in people reporting abduction by aliens Journal Of Abnormal Psychology 111(3): 455-461

    Guide to Cosmic Nonsense (2004) Alien Abductions and UFOs. Sky & Telescope, May2004, 107(5), 42

    McNally, Richard J.; Lasko, N. B.; Clancy, S. A.; Macklin, M. L.; Pitman, R. K.; Orr, S. P. (2004) Psychophysiological Responding During Script-Driven Imagery in People Reporting Abduction by Space Aliens. Psychological Science 15(7), 493-497
     
  10. duendy Registered Senior Member

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    Skin....then picks up coat an shuffles out of the door. he doesn't hear all the other interested participants laugh and laugh and laugh, and then continue investigation
     
  11. shaman_ Registered Senior Member

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    According to the documentary Is It Real?:UFOs there are relatively few abduction cases from Mexico. Mexico is supposedly a ufo hotbed so it is interesting if this is the case. Apparently abductions are not part of the popular culture there like they are in the US.

    This was just a documentary so if anyone can verify or disprove this I would be interested.

    This does not necessarily prove anything but it gives an indication of the influence of pop culture.
     
  12. SkinWalker Archaeology / Anthropology Moderator

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    What I say demonstrates that there is no evidence for alien abductions but a preponderance of evidence for the alternative explanations. Explanations that the believers, predictably, reject. As to hearing all the other interested participants, you, to date, are the only one that appears to be arguing the believer position in this thread.

    You ask if I've examined "all" the evidence for implants/scars etc. I ask you, where is it? How many of these alleged abductees have reported their kidnappings to the FBI? How many of these alleged "implants" have been studied by independent laboratory and what are the citations to the papers that resulted? What do scars have to do with anything? I have scars on my own body. Some I don't know the origin of. Scars prove nothing.

    Where is the true forensic evidence that supports this supernatural fantasy of "alien abduction?" Ghost stories are fun, but like all ghost stories, the get more and more believed culturally as the popular media create more and more fictions based on the theme. Alien abductions weren't reported until the 1960s when shows like The Outer Limits had episodes that dealt with that very theme. Then the XFiles came along and re-ignited the theme along with that series of novels by Streiber, a horror novelist.
     
  13. duendy Registered Senior Member

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    i am not sure about that. i may remember Valle claiming tat stories of aductions strecyhc further back in time. and of course you have the very ancinet shamanistic abductions etc....jeeeez Skin dude. you really are a staunch materi-A'LIST..........say someone had tis experience. they arein a hospital......someone suddenly puhes past them, and the person says 'oh sorry' (as you do) looks at passng person who then walks into a wall and disappears. is she affected by 'folklore' or did she have an experience of a 'ghost'? what do you say?
     
  14. Avatar smoking revolver Valued Senior Member

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    -duendy ignorelisted-
     
  15. SkinWalker Archaeology / Anthropology Moderator

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    Testimony is NOT RELIABLE AS EVIDENCE. Even in a court of law, it is well understood that eyewitness testimony without coroborating forensic evidence is nearly worthless. That you consider this to be "evidence" is you greatest failing. People lie. People are deluded. People misunderstand what they see.

    We're talking about thousands, perhaps millions, of people who claim to have been abducted. Are you suggesting each and every one was abducted? Just because they say so? Are you suggesting that NONE have been the victim of sleep paralysis (a very well understood event that has been OBSERVED in the laboratory)?

    If you can admit that even ONE of these people are victims of sleep paralysis, that even one of them lied, that even one of them misunderstood what happened to them, then you must admit that it is possible that ALL OF THEM can be considered as such.

    There are no forensic evidences that demonstrate "space aliens" taking people in the night.

    You keep talking about implants and "scoop" marks. The latter means nothing. The very term is spurious. The former DOESN'T EXIST. If it does, point me to the peer-reviewed literature of the examination of one. Otherwise, we can discard it right here.

    There's no evidence for "abductions by space aliens" or fairies, goblins, witches, ghosts, or whatever other supernatural kidnappers people believe in the world over.

    There is a PREPONDERANCE of evidence for sleep paralysis, delusion, false memories, hynogogic imagery, and even deception among humans.

    Its clear what the "space alien" phenomenon really is. Particularly since there are thousands, if not millions, of people who claim it and NOT ONE BIT OF FORENSIC/PHYSICAL EVIDENCE.
     
  16. Stryder Keeper of "good" ideas. Valued Senior Member

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    I believe it is possible that some people will have something occur, however I don't suggest it's alien in origin but more to do with the medical communities research programs.

    To explain it you have to define first "Observation theory", this is where an Experimenter's observation of an experiment can have an actual effect on the experiment itself. If you are trying to do a well Caliberated experiment, observation theory can turn your results upside down. It obviously means to carry out such an experiment you have to limit how your observation can cause uncertainty (or chaos).

    There have been many psychological experiments conducted in the past that have been mentioned in the news, on the internet and even within this forum. Such experiments consisted of tests for ESP & Psychic powers while others concerned more with a better understanding of the human psyche or the treatment methods for certain conditions.

    Take into account that any experiment involving the psychology of an individual has to be "unbiased", if they enter into a contract and become a guinea pig openly, the likelihood is that they will act in the best interests of themselves towards those they interact with which generates a false result. This is why it can be suggested that utilising clandestine techniques and lieing about who/what, they are they can generate a result closer to the outcome they want.

    Afterall if you are studying Psychosis, Paranoid Schizophrenia or potential violent types of psychiatric conditions, such a clandestine method removes the doctors from potential danger and removes them from potentially triggering the person to act irrational in relationship to them.

    Is the above statements any less true or accurate than an abductee allogation?
     
  17. glenn239 Registered Senior Member

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    I for one would guess that a comparative analysis of those claiming to have been abducted vs those who have claimed to see a UFO would show that Skinwalker’s apparent claim of fringe personalities probably does predominate within the abductee crowd.

    Eyewitness testimony in court ranges from worthless to golden, depending upon the motives and reliability of the witnesses themselves. For instance, if two perfect strangers both without apparent motive independently report witnessing X, Y, and Z, then their testimony is probably true. If four family members report a fifth was not at a crime scene, the chances that they are not being truthful are higher.

    It is a routine procedure for juries and judges to exercise all forms of discretion when dealing with such testimony.
     
  18. SkinWalker Archaeology / Anthropology Moderator

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    I cannot disagree with that. I was thinking more along the lines of an independent eyewitness who is alleging a crime that wasn't witnessed by others, particularly not to the degree of the initial witness.

    If a clerk at a small store calls the police and states he was robbed, the police will respond. The clerk gives a vague, generic description of the robber and states that the thief wore a ski mask. The till is missing.

    Robbery happens to small stores enough in verifiable ways that we can give some benefit of the doubt. However, no other witness is available and, being winter, a person matching the vague description is picked up with a ski mask just a block away.

    Do we assume that this person is the theif. Could the store clerk have been lying. Does the store camera reveal information that is useful? Are there fingerprints? Does the suspect have a gun as the clerk stated? If not, is one found in likely locations (mail boxes, trash cans, sewer drains, etc)?

    There's a lot riding on a potentially innocent man's life when we know two things: stores get robbed; people lie; and people are greedy. Is the greedy liar the store clerk or the suspect.

    If a gun can be found with fingerprints, or fingerprints found on the till, or if the store video camera shows the suspect with ski mask, then there might be a case.

    But if this were an abduction by "space aliens," the fingerprints would be missing, the store tape would show nothing, and the people in or around the store would see nothing. The clerk might claim that his "robber" left an implant or "scoop marks," but no implant is found and some random scratches on the clerk reveal little.

    A good thread that discusses eye witness testimony and embellishment can be found here: http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=45461
     
  19. Balerion Banned Banned

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    What's "so hard about this" is the fact that it is a ficticious scenario, and it isn't real. We don't have these evidences.

    No, I can't. Science has stated what the "extraordinary" evidence would entail, yet none of you can provide it. If this evidence is out of reach at "any point in time" then what are the chances that the thing you claim is true?

    So you are willing to believe that NASA put bogus dialouge on the airwaves for the "elite group in society" when that very elite group's accounts would not be considered evidence?

    How is it that you are willing to believe that scenario rather than the entirely plausible (and actually true) scenario that we went to the moon? What is so hard to believe about that, and so easy to believe about extraterrestrials swooping down and abducting people from Earth?

    You'll get back to me after you cook up an answer, you mean.

    Shall I dig up all the posts you've made verbally insulting, trolling and stalking people on this board? If you want, I can do it. I'd like to avoid taking this conversation into that realm, but if you want, I can do it.

    JD
     
  20. Gustav Banned Banned

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    hmm
    try the stalking for a start

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    ps: there is something kinda weird about some of your responses. i get confounded sometimes. its like i wanna say...."dude! i never said that!"
     
  21. Gustav Banned Banned

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    hey, i got an idea
    since you might be motivated to dig stuff up, perhaps you could find the ones with my woo woo claims and beliefs. yknow.. the aliens are here stuff.
     
  22. Meanwhile Banned Banned

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    A poll: do you believe you're crazy, or do you believe you encountered extraterrestrials?

    I think you're being very unfair, and excessively — or is it desperately? — reinventing the meaning of "belief" as though it unexpectedly jumped out of a hat. Gotcha indeed. If I step into a church, do I automatically "believe" in Christianity? Or do I simply accept the fact that I walked into a church? Precisely: I'm experiencing the church's old architecture, the church's gloomy silence, the church's stale stupor, without having to drag in a whole belief system. Nor would I find myself quizzing over some weird subliminal "intention".

    So then, what belief system are you forcing upon the rest of us? • There are people who are impatient and will characteristically expedite snappy decisions, and will likewise decide to "believe" rather promptly, as though skirting a quagmire. • There are people who will hesitate and put "belief" on the back-burner, but will walk around as though in a quagmire. • There are people who will suspect something happened, hence cautiously "believe" something might have happened. • There are people who will attempt to cancel the incredible because nothing so bizarre could possibly strike them, but will nonetheless "believe" in their own astuteness of perception. • There are people who will "believe" in the phenomenon as they would "believe" any viable plausibility because their logic understands that it's all so possible, yet they will never "believe" any of it could involve them. • There are people who will fancy the thought, as a lark, like watching a good horror movie in the dark, and will allow a certain compromise, a certain amount of "belief", so as to pacify the horror of the unknown. • There are people who will deliberately examine the ramifications for openly declaring "belief", as though they were gay. • There are people who know they will eventually "believe", but prefer to procrastinate, as though delaying the inevitable. • There are people who will find shelter in "believing" something they can touch rather than something they can't. • There are people who will "believe" without admitting it, and people who will not "believe" by admitting it. • There are people who will reluctantly "believe", people who will boldly "believe", people who will shamefully "believe". • There are people who will "believe" in small steps until one day they notice that they are sympathising — because they are feeling a strong affinity. • There are people who will suppress their "belief". • There are people who won't acknowledge outright "belief", like disowning the black sheep of the family. • There are people who will tolerate "belief", assume "belief", take "belief" for granted, like, so what? • There are people who will surrender to "belief" without wishing to. • There are people who will simply "believe" because they know they're not crazy.

    Note too your impulsive remark: "these people". You unwittingly placed yourself precisely at that point I stated earlier:
    In other words, SkinWalker, you sound very much like a bigot.

    That doesn't make sense. Are you now faulting people who suspect, who might have good reason to suspect, that something unfathomable has happened to them, but that they must never allude to its cause because the cause isn't what you "believe" in? But to suspect means to start somewhere. And how does one begin to suspect? With one's feet? Of course it's the mind they all have in common — what's so profound about that? However, how many different languages exist to describe the same thing? And each language has a different pitch, a different flavour to describe the same thing. So what?

    But I see where you're going with this: a form of collective consciousness that embraces a collective attitude and belief system and poisons itself by a collective voice. Something totally out of proportion. Something wild. Something insane. Like the global marches that unified the whole planet in 2003 and held every government in suspended animation while every man, women and child held their breaths prior to the pre-war invasion of Iraq. They were all of a collective consciousness, right? Are you now saying that these people of differing cultures, citizenry, denominations, political allegiances, economies, professions, status, genders, personalities, were all exhibiting pro-terrorist, closet Al Qaeda tendencies, and were of one collective mind with the extreme Muslim cliques because they opposed the fanatical objectives of the neocon clique? You see, SkinWalker, you can paint a collective religious grin on anything.

    Like all those crazy people yelling and prodding and stimulating and stomping and crooning and pounding and chanting together with the spirit of victory… what's the scientific term for football fans?

    I should say.

    You can look at it that way if you wish. Or, you can use an alternative breakdown of a logical sequence to explain "elusiveness". Like those stealth bomber aircraft the Air Force are so sensitive about — secret tests and all that. Simply because they never appear on the radar screen doesn't mean the Air Force don't drop bombs. I said it a thousand times already: one of the main features characterising ETs is their stealth. Is stealth an American Air Force invention?

    Again, how many armies exist globally? Do they all carry the same weaponry, wear the same uniform, fly the same aircraft, wave the same flag? So the conundrum thickens. Perhaps ETs are fashion-conscious after all? Or perhaps different equipment points to different institutions, different bureaucracies, different branches of their science? Add to that the possibility of different alien species with different levels of technology, each with their own fashion-conscious choice of attire to greet their different special guests.

    Or, has it ever occurred to you that the collective consciousness, that you don't quite give full potential for, reverberated globally in the modern collective subconscious, when alien consciousness inadvertently connected with terrestrial consciousness, thereby unleashing a rumble, like the tip of thunderclaps, and striking an incredible screech across the human collective psyche — only to be picked up on radar by the more sensitive and off-the-wall members of the Homo sapiens family, its artists, where the dramatic found expression? Another reason why abductees are best preferred unconscious? No live wires.

    Abduction accounts awaken peoples minds and provides attestation.

    So? But who asserts that an explanation is a delusional expanation?

    So? Are Messrs Lynn and Nitch not creating the delusion that most abductees don't form ideas and explanations before seeing a therapist? In fact, do all abductees even bother to see therapists?

    You are definitely under the delusion that the aliens will put everything on hold until you've satisfied yourselves, for yourselves, that they are real. Meanwhile, until then, they've got the whole playing field to themselves. That is really funny.

    And what triggers paralysis? Obviously, I detect an Achilles' Heel somewhere. Hence most likely it can also be artificially induced by simply tapping into the right nerves. Yet, if you look at it from an alien's perspective, you'll notice just how practical such an immobilisation might be. And the bonus part of it is that the symptoms can easily masquerade as being a "normal" neurological disfunction.
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2005
  23. SkinWalker Archaeology / Anthropology Moderator

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    Meanwhile, in your sea of non sequitur you pass off as a reply to my posts in this thread, your hypothesis depends on a central theme: that extraterrestrials are here and space aliens are abducting people. That simply hasn't been demonstrated to be factual and, indeed, my posts have demonstrated that the alternative hypothesis is far more plausible. That you choose not to accept it is, of course your perogative, but one that is biased to your beliefs, not of evidence.

    First, I'm not sure how I may have "reinvented the meaning of 'belief.'" Belief is simply the mental action, condition, or habit, of trusting to or confiding in a person or thing. One can have belief grounded in that which is testable and verifiable (consistent with the scientific method) or belief that is grounded in fantasy or delusion (the supernatural). Belief in the UFO-ETI hypothesis is *not* grounded in scientific method but rather the supernatural. I hold this assertion provisionally and am willing to revise given testable, verifiable, and reproducible evidence.

    Second, I don't see that you've demonstrated my unfairness at all. Indeed, all you've really done is show that I'm being fair! I've admitted on several occasions in this and other threads that I'm open-minded to the space alien hypothesis. I hold my assertions and hypotheses provisionally. That's far more than I've seen several others admit to on the believer side of the debate. Neither you or duendy seem willing ot acknowledge even one case of sleep paralysis or false memory is possible. That, my friend, is a very close-minded and narrow position. You aren't the least bit willing to revise.

    Third, what would be the point in my alleged "desparation?" I have no belief system that I'm beholden to. I would love, more than anything, to see the space alien hypothesis proved. I'm an anthropologist and archaeologist (okay, fourth year, but this is my field), and as such I would love the opportunity to examine a completely alien culture -one that no other anthropologist has. Yet I maintain that the space alien hypothesis is, as yet, quite unevidenced.

    I force upon you nothing. If I'm able to do that, then I deserve your worship as a god but, alas, I'm a mere mortal and not a very good one at that. But I do assert. And my assertion is that belief in alien abductions in the face so much evidence for the alternative hypothesis and no evidence for the ETI hypothesis is foolhardy.

    "These" people; those people... is there a more appropriate pronoun? I think the desparation on the believer, as is the burdon of proof. Are believer so desparate these days that they now accuse skeptics of being bigots as well as "fake" skeptics? I find more and more humor on this board everyday. Thank you for that.

    You call it 'faulting' people, but I contend that the research that is being conducted in this field is for the benefit of others. The problem of false memories, suggested memories, and delusions are faced every day by abuse victims or those that allege abuse. These are real people's lives that are affected and the more knowledge that health care professionals have about them the better equipped they are to deal with them.

    Much of the rest of your post was as incoherent and out of touch as the above, so I omitted it in my reply. I have no idea what you're going on about and which of us you think is suggest some sort of "collective consciousness" -a ludicrous idea that has even less plausibility than the space alien hypothesis.

    Fascinating. Do continue. From an anthropological perspective, your beliefs and the extent to which you are willing to go in order to justify them is simply fascinating. I am, even now, making field notes on my participant observation of the natives in their habitat. By the way, had you bothered to take a scholarly approach, rather than a woo-woo approach, you might've noticed the explanations for sleep paralysis and the causes for it in one or more of the citations I provided. If you haven't access to scholarly journals, I'd be happy to email you a copy of the pdf with the appropriate information.

    Thank you for your response, however. I'm very happy someone besides duendy is bothering to do so from the believer side of the argument.
     
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