Is science a religion?

Discussion in 'Religion' started by Yazata, Jan 4, 2020.

  1. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

    Exactly what? What evidence do you have for any mythical " Supreme Being" ?
    Umm, the answer to that should be good.

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    What being? Is this being greater then a God?
    What evidence do you have for this weird interpretation.
    Or are you accepting Einstein's version of a " so called non religious being" a Spinoza God sort of thing.
    Still no evidence, and my interpretation of what Einstein accepted is that there is enough awe and wonder in science and cosmology itself, rather then any need for any mythical unscientific, unevidenced nonsense.
    A Universe that essentially doesn't give a rat' s arse [or can give a rat' s arse] about how it is evolving, expanding, evolving stars and planets, abiogenesis and intelligence.
    It's an impersonal thing which Einstein was using as an analogy.
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  3. Dywyddyr Penguinaciously duckalicious. Valued Senior Member

    Basically you're saying: a rabbit is not a tortoise. Or River is not logical.
    You start with "Because a Supreme Being..."
    and then proceed with a description[1] of something that you're aware[2] is NOT a supreme being.

    1 A "description" evidently pulled out of your arse.
    2 Of course, this being you, I'm not entirely sure that "aware" is the right word.
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  5. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    From the thread Chemical Evolution.
    In reference to :
    Is it? Allow me to quote directly from Scripture.
    IMO, "God will provide" is hardly an encouragement to become practically informed about anything.

    Will God really provide?

    Philippians 4:19
    And my God will supply every need of yours according to his riches in glory in Christ Jesus.
    Matthew 6:31-32
    Therefore do not be anxious, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ For the Gentiles seek after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them all.
    Genesis 3:21
    And the Lord God made for Adam and for his wife garments of skins and clothed them.
    Luke 12:24
    Consider the ravens: they neither sow nor reap, they have neither storehouse nor barn, and yet God feeds them. Of how much more value are you than the birds!
    Matthew 7:11
    If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!
    Psalm 145:15-16
    The eyes of all look to you, and you give them their food in due season. You open your hand; you satisfy the desire of every living thing.
    James 4:1-2
    What causes quarrels and what causes fights among you? Is it not this, that your passions are at war within you? You desire and do not have, so you murder. You covet and cannot obtain, so you fight and quarrel. You do not have, because you do not ask.
    Psalm 34:10
    The young lions suffer want and hunger; but those who seek the Lord lack no good thing.
    James 5:14
    Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord.
    Matthew 11:29-30
    Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.”
    2 Corinthians 9:8
    And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that having all sufficiency in all things at all times, you may abound in every good work.
    Matthew 6:25
    “Therefore I tell you, do not be anxious about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink, nor about your body, what you will put on. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothing?
    Romans 6:23
    For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
    2 Timothy 3:16
    All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
    John 5:24
    Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
    Psalm 103:1-22
    Of David. Bless the Lord, O my soul, and all that is within me, bless his holy name! Bless the Lord, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits, who forgives all your iniquity, who heals all your diseases, who redeems your life from the pit, who crowns you with steadfast love and mercy, who satisfies you with good so that your youth is renewed like the eagle’s. …
    Jeremiah 29:11
    For I know the plans I have for you, declares the Lord, plans for welfare and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope.

    I do not think following these directions will get you a college degree or even a skilled job. But hey, who needs to know anything as long as you know God will provide?

    Note, that just as Scripture, I am speaking metaphorically only.....

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    Last edited: Dec 11, 2020
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  7. Q-reeus Banned Valued Senior Member

    What the hell has any of that scripture quoting got to do with your assertion "ID'ers profess that ignorance is bliss."? made here:
    I have made it clear on many occasions that as an ex-christian I do not accept the bible as Holy Writ. Far from it. So you are doubly confused here.
  8. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    Are you an ID'er? If not, why the protest? If you are, explain to me how the concept of an Intelligent Designer adds to the concept of scientific inquiry?
  9. Q-reeus Banned Valued Senior Member

    Is your memory that bad? Yes I'm an IDer as per my previous posts going back years now, but very far from the young earth variety. Since you have failed totally to substantiate your false claim "IDers profess that ignorance is bliss", I'm calling on you to unreservedly retract it!
  10. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

    Just had a quick peruse before retiring last night, and I'm sure there was something about you being an "ex-christian", going back years now. I certainly do not read all your posts, [not by a long shot] but I have never seen that revelation. Perhaps you rethought and retracted? That's OK then.

    The "ignorance is bliss" remark though, certainly seems to fit James Tour judging by his own crusade like rhetoric in the chemical evolution thread.
  11. Q-reeus Banned Valued Senior Member

    ???? For someone who spends a lot of time hunting for online articles to then cut & paste here, your searching skills are woeful. A quick search and:
    Making up yet more shit . Actually quote Tour as ever having made an 'ignorant is bliss' statement aimed at ID advocates. You won't be able to. So retract it! Like with Write4U, you are probably emotionally incapable of doing so.
  12. paddoboy Valued Senior Member

    Like I said, I'm not in the habit of reading all your posts, sorry about that...they lack that certain something.

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    Your comprehension is at fault q-reeus. I said in actual fact "The "ignorance is bliss" remark though, certainly seems to fit James Tour judging by his own crusade like rhetoric in the chemical evolution thread." and I stand fully behind that...evidence is his own words in taking the bible so literally and even insisting that he would not change his mind about that crazy literal interpretation, even if evidence was forthcoming for Abiogenesis.
    You seem to be scraping the bottom of the barrel q-reeus quibbling about ifs and buts and outright denial of what's there in black and white.
    You take it easy!

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    ps: Obviously no retraction sorry!

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  13. pluto2 Banned Valued Senior Member

    This world would have been much better and much more just if there was some kind of God but the fact is this world is mostly garbage so this to me means that there isn't any kind of God who cares about people.

    The fact is that Christians are way too arrogant and conceited to admit that there is no God and that everything in this world is shit and that human life actually isn't precious.
  14. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    In which case science would not be "a religion", but many religions - if religion at all.
    Successful prediction, informative and hypothesis generating explanation, a record of having changed in response to conflicts with observation, et al.
    Basically: all science answers to reason and observation both. Religion - at least theistic religion - does not.
    Which has imho become the major barrier to the development of religion among the scientifically informed and guided - the reduction of awareness and comprehension to a choice between billiard ball materialism and the abandonment of spiritual insight altogether did and does serious damage.
    Forcing those who don't want to live in a playpen for psychopaths to adhere to confused and useless oversimplifications of human understanding and mental capabilities is a serious harm.
    The depth and value of such inquiry differs - to the point of negative vs positive, even - between theistic religion and science. The inquiry into foundational beliefs has become a foundation of all science, critically and centrally necessary, carried on as deeply and thoroughly as we can find ways to do it; while being held of small, no, and even negative value in all the theistic religions I know of.

    Which is not the same as claiming such a stance for all theistically religious people, or even intellectuals, notice. There are many Tony Hillermans and Wendell Berrys in this world (in belief and reason, of course, not rare writing ability or diligence in accomplishment). But as many others have pointed out, their writings seem to be more at odds with their claimed religions than their scientific understandings. (The phenomenon of people who call themselves Christian filing lawsuits to impose framed copies of modern English translations of the Ten Commandments in their courtrooms, rather than the Beatitudes or certain of the directly relevant Parables of Jesus, is so common in the US it seems normal, unremarkable. )
  15. parmalee peripatetic artisan Valued Senior Member

    What was Hillerman's professed religion? Never read his memoirs/non-fiction, only the Chee and Leaphorn novels. From his fiction, I kinda gathered that he likely ascribed to something akin to a Navajo belief system, surely he wasn't a Christian?
  16. kx000 Valued Senior Member

    Science & omniscience together is cosmic order. It's a network of things which is deeply religious and spiritual. I take refuge in the three gems, the buddha (religion), the dharma (science/teaching), and the sangha (fraternity).
  17. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    Hillerman's nonfiction strikes me as attractively sane, clearly written, and - looking for the word - humble? Something like that. It's also brief.
    It seems to be a product of research done to support novels, as most many-book novelists find necessary after the first two or three, and his investigations as a young journalist. There isn't much of it - wouldn't take much time.
    Not "professed" (he wasn't evangelical) but my own inference from various hints into what he seemed to regard as strictly his own business led me to take for granted that he was Catholic Christian (of a deeply considered variety - his protestations and biases to the side, he was a sophisticated intellectual).

    When you asked, I realized I had never checked - this turned up just today, after a quick keyword search:

    A bit startlingly, for those who share my biases: lower class German Catholic - his childhood heritage one of the world's demographical centers of spiritual degradation. That is a lesson I learned many years ago while kicking around the American peasant job market, but a refresher bump does no harm. Thank you.

    (Speculation: The rehabilitation of "Germanic" spirituality probably has to wait on the outcome of the current international fascist surge - but it has to happen. The Eurasian crossroads of our species as it leaves the waterside and occupies dry land cannot be left to its own disastrous flailings with modern technological power. Passing thought).
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2020
  18. parmalee peripatetic artisan Valued Senior Member

    Yeah, found that after I posted the query. The part about "Ivy League Indians that have got a grandmother who was one-sixteenth Cherokee--but they're not sure, right?" reminded me a bit of this interview of Shelley Hirsch by Peter Stampfel (Holy Modal Rounders) that I had just read (it also reminded me, again, of why I like Tony Hillerman):

    At some point during my childhood I convinced myself that there always movements, which can be described as "underground" perhaps, that run parallel to major traditions. They're largely antithetical to, but somehow still a part of, these major traditions. There's ample evidence for such -- maybe not the "always" part, but often enough -- and it makes a whole lot more sense than pretending that someone like Thomas Merton, say, wasn't really a Catholic.
  19. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    Just ran across this gem.
    Being that you mentioned my name.
    I am not the only one to declare that ID is designed to keep people stupid, blindly following the words of the shepherd who promises eternal bliss, "if only you believe" in that unseen, unknowable Intelligent Designer in the sky, and use my school taxes to buy and install the book "Of Pandas and People" in public classrooms, so that my child can benefit of blissful scientific ignorance?

    Here is a statement by a more credentialed organization ;

    Who is making up "shit"? You or the National Science Teachers Association?

    Go play with the Pandas!
  20. Cenderawasih Registered Member


    Personally, I'd say that religious-like attitudes can be found in the sciences. It should come as no surprise to anyone that science has its more liberal open-minded thinkers as well as the fiercely conservative types whose resistence to, and suppression of, alternatives to their own cherished worldview might aptly be described as dogmatic -- the kind of thing we tend to associate with certain religions.

    One example that leaps to mind immediately is the so-called Copenhagen school (Bohr, Heisenberg, Pauli, etc.) of quantum mechanics.

    Things seems to have loosened up a little these days, as far as I can discern, though it was only a few decades ago that any attempt to challenge Copenhagen orthodoxy was met with ridicule, censorship (i.e. refusal to publish) and perhaps even the end of a budding career.

    When first hearing of David Bohm's "pilot wave" alternative to the reigning Copenhagen hegemony, for example, John Bell exclaimed (and I paraphrase) "How come no one ever told me about this?!!"

    Speaking of John Bell, the first person to experimentally test the famous "Bell's theorem" was American physicist John Clauser . . .

    "Clauser recalled that during his student days "open inquiry into the wonders and peculiarities of quantum mechanics" that went beyond the Copenhagen interpretation was "virtually prohibited by the existence of various religious stigmas and social pressures, that taken together, amounted to an evangelical crusade against such thinking."

    (quoted from "Quantum: Einstein, Bohr, and the great debate about the nature of reality", Manjit Kumar, p356)
  21. arfa brane call me arf Valued Senior Member

    I think it's probably impossible for humans to get together and follow any kind of common cause, without religion entering into it.

    Even if we don't acknowledge it's what happens, even if the god or gods being worhipped aren't explicitly named.
    It's just who we are. It probably existed in some way before we started building temples or henges.

    We like to organise ourselves around leaders, too. Probably that one goes back a real long way.
  22. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    This may be an indication;

    What do chimp ‘temples’ tell us about the evolution of religion?

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    Sign or symbol

    There have been observations of Alpha Chimps , during a thunderstorm, running around while his family tried to find shelter and hide.

    The male would pick up sticks and valiantly wave them at the heavens, beating the bushes and in a display of defiance, throwing them up at that invisible being in the sky that was making loud noises and scaring him and his family miserable by throwing fire and water at them.

    The observers were convinced that this showed defensive aggressive behavior often seen during skirmishes with other tribes and might be caused by the fight or flight response to a perceived threat, even if the enemy is hidden in the bushes, or trees, or sky.

    Which perhaps led to the earliest sky gods like Thor, Odin, Zeus.

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