# Is relativity of simultaneity measurable?

Discussion in 'Physics & Math' started by Pete, May 8, 2013.

1. ### LaymanTotally Internally ReflectedValued Senior Member

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I still don't see what type of distinction your trying to make. I try to point out what I think it is and you just say no it is not every time I do that.

3. ### ash64449Registered Senior Member

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HAHA!! You copy-paste Wikipedia definition!! Surely you don't know what is coordinate time and proper time!

5. ### ash64449Registered Senior Member

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No. I said i went a little 'deep'. That's all. Acceleration is what caused difference in proper time.

And difference in proper time is what they measured confirming Einstein's effects were right. so whole relativity is right.

I said no because it is not right. I am not going to say who is wrong and who is right. If it is logically correct to me, i will accept them. I will not argue to always say i am correct. I was wrong many times and i was corrected mainly on RoS subject were i too thought Time Dilation is caused by RoS. Then i realized that i was wrong.

7. ### LaymanTotally Internally ReflectedValued Senior Member

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I don't think RoS is the actual physical mechanism that causes time dilation. Often times people that do think that it is the actual physical mechanism behind it tend to believe that time dilation is not a real effect or that clocks don't actually tick slower. I don't think it can be the physical mechanism behind this effect because it assumes that the observer on the train will measures flashes equidistant from the front and the back of the train to reach an observer in the middle of the train at different times because of his forward motion. The observer on the train is in constant motion so he could assume that he is at rest. Then two flashes equidistant from the front and back of the train would reach him at the same time. Then comes a paradox, the flashes of light would not reach him at the same time if he assumes he is in motion and will reach him at the same time when he assumes he is at rest. The observers assumptions cannot effect the arrival times of the flashes of light.

8. ### LaymanTotally Internally ReflectedValued Senior Member

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I actually read it before I copied and pasted it.

9. ### ash64449Registered Senior Member

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Motion is Relative. So Time Is Relative. So straightforward. That object doesn't know whether it is moving or not. Other's measure that object to move 0.6c and 0.8c in their frame of reference.

I don't have to argue on this point. You have only done measurement that is only valid relative to you.other guy gets measurement right relative to them

But airplane guy got right result because acceleration is distinguishable. Everybody will agree on acceleration so too on time dilation caused by it.

See?

10. ### ash64449Registered Senior Member

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People believing time dilation caused by RoS won't think Time dilation is not a real effect.

I agree Time Dilation is real. According to only his frame of reference. Einstein reduced everything to 'relative'. So he is right.

Oh.. I see.. You are stuck in RoS itself.

OK. Before any further discussion Tell me:

Do you think in Einstein's experiment two observers would agree that lightning strikes are simultaneous in their own reference frame?

11. ### ash64449Registered Senior Member

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Implying you don't know any connection of coordinate time and proper time in time dilation. You are seeing those concepts for the first time.

12. ### LaymanTotally Internally ReflectedValued Senior Member

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I have ran into a few.

I think that both observers would measure the flashes to reach the middle of the train simultaneously as according to the Michelson & Morley Experiment. In RoS, the flashes reach simultaneously for the observer in the train but not for the observer on the platform. I just still don't agree with the results of the thought experiment as from the last time I talked about it on these forums. I think the M&M experiment proved that an observer in motion would still measure the flashes to reach him at the same time.

13. ### LaymanTotally Internally ReflectedValued Senior Member

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What is this elementary school? Why can no one know something about what they are discussing ever on these forums? Coordinate Plane, duh, one axis has a "t" on it instead of an x, y, or z. What's your point?

14. ### ash64449Registered Senior Member

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You don't have to answer to my posts above. No use if discussing with you without knowing information.

Note you don't have to reply.

15. ### ash64449Registered Senior Member

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What are you trying to explain here?

Frankly tell me whether you know the relationship between coordinate time and proper time or do you know what is proper time and coordinate time. IF you are in the mood of healthy discussion,this must be the truth,If you are interested in learning something rather than making "discoveries"

16. ### wellwisherBannedBanned

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We infer time dilation through the effect on tangible things. If we got rid of the clocks, you can't infer anything. Space-time is a reference variable that allows us to gauge how tangible things change, but it is not real without tangible things.

Here is the experiment; We will have a large empty crate full of space-time that we will pump in from the ground. Next, we will fly around the world and when we return we will open the crate and let the two space-times merge and notice the waves. What do you think will happen? You will see nothing since the effect is all in the imagination. You need substance since space-time is only a mental grid on which substance is placed and it should not lead theory unless imaginary comes first.

In the case of the clocks, above, the impact of the airplane motion lingers within the matter (time changed due to material changes). How is that possible if space-time returns to normal when the plane lands?

17. ### LaymanTotally Internally ReflectedValued Senior Member

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I would like to discover how this turned into me trying to uncover what misconception you had about relativity and how that turned into you teaching me the difference between proper time and coordinate time.

18. ### ash64449Registered Senior Member

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Yeah. I had misconceptions 'earlier'. You were offline. That time,i discussed more and more and got new information and insight into relativity.

I read Einstein's 1905 paper and Space time physics by Taylor and wheeler.

I know many things now but i am learning too.. I never want to know who is right and who is wrong. I want to know what and how nature really works.

When i was discussing with you earlier, i didn't know what is proper time and coordinate time. But i think i know them now and its important connection with time dilation.

So Do you know the difference or what is proper time and coordinate time? (please answer this,No further discussion until you answer this with yes or no) or did you know them before i told you to post?

19. ### LaymanTotally Internally ReflectedValued Senior Member

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I bet you couldn't maintain the effect of how one coordinate plane observes another coordinate plane differently if one coordinate plane became the other coordinate plane. One coordinate plane would only observe another coordinate plane differently if it was not the same coordinate plane. So I don't think it is entirely because of an effect of how different coordinate planes can view each other differently. When they become the same frame their would be no difference between them. But, the clocks ticking at rest side by side each other read differently...

20. ### LaymanTotally Internally ReflectedValued Senior Member

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Why do you keep asking me this? I already gave you a link in the wiki. Then I told you it was just the time used on a coordinate plane. What else do you want from me? I independently derived the proper time. What do you think is so special about coordinate time that I need to know about? It is absolutely killing me.

21. ### ash64449Registered Senior Member

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Coordinate time is indeed special!!!

Tell me with a straightforward answer.

Did you 'actually' know what is proper time and what is coordinate time before you put your first post here with your new account?

Only 'Yes' or 'No'. why are you hesitating to answer like this?

22. ### LaymanTotally Internally ReflectedValued Senior Member

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I want to know why you think it is so special.

I fail to see why that is necessary.

I could say that I am fairly sure that you didn't know what coordinate time was before you made your first post on your account.

It could be a trick question. Do I win a prize if I answer it correctly? I don't understand why this is an issue. Is there something about me that screams that I don't know the difference between coordinate time and proper time? I thought I knew the difference between them before my first post, but now, I am not so sure? Or have you ran into an incredibly large amount of ignorance as of late and just assume everyone you meet has been unable to make such a distinction?

23. ### ash64449Registered Senior Member

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Yeah. I agree,, I didn't know what is coordinate time and proper time when i made my first post on this forum.