Is rape usually about power, or sex?

Discussion in 'Human Science' started by Nasor, Oct 3, 2009.

  1. Lori_7 Go to church? I am the church! Registered Senior Member

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    rape is not about sex. i'm sorry, but it's just not that difficult to get laid...i don't care who you are. you can pay for it for god's sake. you can masturbate. you can have some self control. it isn't about power either. to say that rape is about power is like saying that beating or killing a puppy is about power. rape is about hatred and associated violence.
     
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  3. Nasor Valued Senior Member

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    His point, which I thought was very obvious, was that since rape is by definition sex without consent, it's absurd to try to say that rape isn't about sex. I saw nothing in his post to indicate that he was saying rape is no more harmful to the victim than trespassing etc., which seemed to be the (imaginary) claim you were arguing against with your "tell me madanthonywayne, if someone stuck their penis or an object in your anus without your implicit or implied consent, would you view it in the same light as someone taking your car or using your land without your consent? Would you not be more "worked up" about that assault on your person than if they borrowed your car without your consent?" statement.
    You seem to be assuming that since a small minority of rape victims are elderly, all rapists everywhere are motivated only by a desire to hurt/humiliate people rather than a desire for sex. What about the guy who date-rapes the attractive teenage girl he just went out with when at the end of the night she doesn't put out? Do you think that his motivations are the same as the motivations of the guy who rapes a random elderly woman?

    Edit: Woops, forgot to address this part:
    And you included a link to a study claiming to show that rapists are not motivated by sex. But there have been many studies on rape, and many of them have found very different results. This study, for instance http://jiv.sagepub.com/cgi/reprint/21/12/1635 .

    It found that among rapists in the UK, only 32% were motivated by a desire to do violence/humiliate and were lacking in a sexual motivation. 37% were motivated only by a desire for sex, and not by a desire to do violence or humiliate. The rest, 31%, were motivated by both a desire to have sex AND a desire to harm/humiliate.

    It seems very plausible to me that rapists have a wide variety of motivations, and that some are motivated by a desire for sex, some by a desire to harm/humiliate, and some by a desire for both. This study seems to confirm that.
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2009
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  5. Bells Staff Member

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    Child molestation is rape in the greater majority of instances. Rape = sexual assault. I don't think I need to point out to you where child molestation fits into that scenario.

    Firstly, what makes you assume that it is only women who drink alcohol who have their drinks spiked? I know of little kids who have had their juice and soft-drinks spiked. Same for grown women, some even in their own homes by people known to them and people they trusted.

    But tell me, what step does a woman take in inviting a rape? Please, enlighten us.

    Can you site some examples?

    I'm sorry, what?

    So a woman who goes into politics and is raped somehow brought it on herself? So a woman should not fight for her political views because she just might get raped? What do you suggest? Locking all women behind closed doors and keeping them covered from head to toe, order them to remain silent lest they attract unwanted attention and possibly being raped?

    Women who are raped in warzones are usually raped by the enemy forces. Not because they are women and therefore provide a vagina for the horny enemy. Rape in war is a way of demeaning and denigrating the enemy.

    Oh dear.

    "In this case"? So you blame rape victims in other cases or instances?

    No. I actually would like you to provide some examples of where a woman is somehow at fault for being sexually assaulted and raped.

    What instances, to you, what classifies as "self respecting people" in your opinion? You have already ruled out women who go into politics. How about nuns? Nuns in warzones are often rape victims. Maybe women should not become nuns either because they often attract rape when the enemy sweeps through.

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    Because God forbid we actually look at the actions of the rapist and blame them. Much easier to blame the victim.

    So when a child is raped, it is the parents fault or responsibility? For example, a child is raped at school by the teacher, it's the parents responsibility? Interesting.

    Now for some statistics:

    http://www.ccasa.org/statistics.cfm

    How about South Africa as another example:

    Want me to go on?

    Rape is rape. That is what you need to actually understand. Sexual abuse of a child is rape.

    So tell me, what actions do women do to cause their rape?

    How?

    By being women? By talking to a male or even male relative or someone known to them or their husband? By wearing something that catches their rapists eye, be it an ankle length dress or a pair of jeans and sweatshirt, etc? By bending over to pick up something they dropped? By driving a car or catching a bus? Tell me, what exactly do women do to cause their rape? What about men who are raped? Children? What do they all do to cause their rapes?

    .......?

    You do realise that beauty is not universal right? What is sexy to you is not going to be sexy to someone else. For one rapist, a pregnant woman dressed in a tent is going to be sexy and a target compared to a woman dressed in a bikini and vice versa.

    What about women who are raped by their husbands? Whoa.. she shouldn't have worn that granny nightie to bed.. the minx was asking for it.

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    So what precautions should women take to avoid being raped? Seeing that anything and everything can attract a potential rapist, what exactly should women be doing or not doing?

    Keep in mind that rapists will pick their victims for a variety of reasons, regardless of dress. So a woman dressed in a tent is just as likely to be raped as a woman dressed in a mini skirt.

    Oh dear.

    So your solution is the death penalty and forcing women to wear a hijab and segregate the sexes? You do realise that rape figures in Saudi Arabia are supposedly low because women are afraid to report being raped for fear of facing the death penalty or a lashing, right, as well as being socially stigmatised, right? That is why rape figures are so low in Saudi Arabia. Not because there are no rapes because of beheadings, forcing women to wear the hijab and segregation. It is the fear of the victims being punished as the perpatrators.

    Offended? No. Just disheartened that after all these years, after years and years of research, that people are still that unable to grasp it. I mean I get that you might view rape as just equalling a guy just needing a quick fuck and taking it where he might get it. But what you cannot seem to grasp is taht the act itself is not just about sex. The gratification is not just sexual. The gratification for rapists comes from overpowering another and removing their power and their ability to have a say in what is to happen to their bodies (ie lack of consent).. That is about power.
     
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  7. Bells Staff Member

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    Can you quote the part in that report where it says that since you have already purchased access to it?
     
  8. Nasor Valued Senior Member

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    There seems to be scientific research (see above) showing that a sizable fraction of rapists (37%) are indeed motivated primarily by a desire for sex, and not a desire to dominate/harm/etc. They are certainly willing to harm someone, but the harm is merely a means to their desired end, rather than an end unto itself. There's also about 1/3 of rapists who are motivated by both a desire for sex and a desire to harm/humiliate others. Only about 1/3 of rapists seem to fall into the "it's not about the sex, it's about the power" stereotype. So while power, domination etc. is certainly an important factor when considering rape - after all, it was a motivating factor in about 2/3 of all rapes - it's not at all accurate to say "rape is about powder, not sex." A more correct statement would be "rape is sometimes about power, sometimes about sex, and sometimes about both."
     
  9. Nasor Valued Senior Member

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    Woops, sorry, I'm on a network with transparent access to a large database of peer-reviewed journals, so I forget to check whether or not other people can access them when I post links. Here is an excerpt from the conclusions:

     
  10. Bells Staff Member

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    The report itself was after interviewing 41 rapists in the UK, correct?

    Something interesting:

    I am not disagreeing with you that it is not just about power. It is a horrid blend and yes, for some, it is also about sex as well as sexual gratification they may get from actually raping someone. The act of rape itself is about power. The denial and removal of consent is about power.
     
  11. Dywyddyr Penguinaciously duckalicious. Valued Senior Member

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    From your source:
    Entitlement?
    http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/entitlement
    I.e. it's my right and what you want doesn't count.
    IOW, I have the power and you can't do anything about it?
     
  12. Nasor Valued Senior Member

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    Obviously anyone who rapes someone else has power over them. The point is that for a certain class of rapists, the power is just an easy means to their desired end (sex) rather than an end unto itself. For others, the sex is merely a means unto the desired end (dominating someone and doing violence).
     
  13. Dywyddyr Penguinaciously duckalicious. Valued Senior Member

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    Except the fact that they actually do have sex with unwilling partners is an assumption, and demonstration, of power.
     
  14. Doreen Valued Senior Member

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    I'll bet your attitude towards what you see as unfair taxation has a lot to do with power issues.

    Notice the way, also, you think that property is a good analogy for INTERPERSONAL relations. The act of seeing another as an object is a power relation. If I see your bicycle as an object and I take it this may be a power dynamic - I could be a local bully getting off on dominating you. However if I see you, your wife or any person as an object I can take, it is a power issue, period. That act of seeing the other as an object and acting on it is about domination.
     
  15. Nasor Valued Senior Member

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    Uh...yes. I already agreed with that when I said "Obviously anyone who rapes someone else has power over them." I'm not sure what your point is. The issue is whether the goal of the criminal is to use sex as a tool to demonstrate his power, or use his power as a tool to acquire sex.
     
  16. scifes In withdrawal. Valued Senior Member

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    untill you improve your reading, this is as far as i'll go with you...

    bells, you are helpless.

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    if you haven't quoted point 3, i would've thought it was written in invisible ink.
    and it's a good thing you quoted it, your reply gave an indication to the uselessness of talking to somebody like you:

    anyone around feels like banging a pregnant women wearing a tent instead of a bikini clad one raise their hands please..

    that's common sense, yeah..

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    on the other hand, point 4 was written in invisible ink:
    and as if that's not enough..:

    ..more invisible ink:
    but what i fail at grasping is, what kind of human being are you to have the face to demand this:
    when i have put this stand alone sentence, and added a yellow smilie to catch the eye, which you seem not to notice and omit in your dissection of my post:
    not to mention the direct clear example in point 3
    dear..
    indeed.
     
  17. visceral_instinct Monkey see, monkey denigrate Valued Senior Member

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    Is there actually any proof that women dressed in a "sexy" way are more likely to be raped?

    I have facial features more like a male's, and usually wear loose clothes and a leather jacket that makes me look big and heavyset. I still get harassed when out at social events. Please tell me how the FUCK I bring that on myself. Maybe being harsh and androgynous is the new "sexy"? I know I have not been actually raped but I think it's still a point worth raising. Why are they drawn to someone blatantly non-sexy?
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2009
  18. madanthonywayne Morning in America Registered Senior Member

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    Did you not notice that I also included murder among my examples of crimes that are defined by consent? Do you think I regard murder the same as theft? When you do something to another person or his property without consent, it's a crime. And the motivation for the crime is generally (and quite reasonably) considered to be the acquisition of the thing taken without consent. Even in murder investigations, the first thing they look for is motive. Why did he do it? What did he want? Most of the time, the motivation is something simple like sex or money. Very rarely is it some kind of psychological quest for power, a notable exception being serial killers.

    But with rape, many like to assume that the motivation is anything but the obvious motivation.
     
  19. nirakar ( i ^ i ) Registered Senior Member

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    If masturbation could replace sex with another person people would be having a lot less sex with each other.
     
  20. scifes In withdrawal. Valued Senior Member

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    this thread seems to show that not all rape incidents happen because of sex or power, it's sometimes one, other times the other, or a combination of both..
    it's common sense for those who see rape for sex..you know how (sex)y fits in it.

    and i guess those are who see rape (or harassment) about power

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    besides everybody, i thought i made it clear that i think a women is never to be blamed for being raped, she is fully and exclusively a victim in such incident, so i don't really mean that women get themselves raped, but in a matter of speaking, if it can be avoided, and it wasn't, well:shrug:...

    in your case VI, i'm totally lost, but i really think you're much prettier than you think you are

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    but why were you harassed then? i don't know..but whoever harrased you had a reason to do so, couldn't you have removed that reason?(note again that i'm not saying it's your fault, but you'd rather avoid it too wouldn't you?)
    also, are there women in the world who have never been harassed in their life? how did they manage that? how were they lucky to be so?
     
  21. nirakar ( i ^ i ) Registered Senior Member

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    I think the motives behind rape are as individual as the rapists and and the situations in which rape occurs are.

    Based on porn, I would have to say there is no shortage of men who are seriously confused and have aggressive or hostile instincts towards women despite their being sexually attracted to women. Something very strange is going on in many men's minds but I can't figure out what it is. Perhaps because religion created shame about sex some men are angry at women because it makes the men feel weak and perverted to be attracted to women. Perhaps the men have repressed hatred of their mothers. I can't figure out what would make men want to hurt women and put them down as being sluts even if they are not sluts and then want to have sex with them anyway; but that theme is common in porn.

    TV and porn may be responsible for mixing sex and violence in the minds of boys who will become men.

    Based on accounts of date rape I would have to say that a lot of men just want to have sex with women and are selfish enough to not take no for an answer but don't necessarily have any desire to hurt women other than as a means to get sex.

    The war rapists are said to be using rape for political purposes but it looks like many men will simply chose to rape if the opportunity presents itself and if their peers will not condemn them as immoral and they won't be punished for raping.

    I think the reason that psychology might prefer to believe that rape is about power is because this belief helps the rape victims to reintegrate into society and into normal relationships with men. Splitting men into a majority of decent normal men and a small minority sadistic rapists who rape to satisfy power fetishes enables the victims to not hold their rapes against all men and to be able to be relaxed around men.

    Surely some men do rape to satisfy their power fetishes but what percentage of rapists are they? Some may rape 100% for power and 0% for sex but I don't think they could get erections. Some may rape 75% for power and 25% for sex and others may rape 75% for sex and 25% for power and for some it may 100% for the sex and 0% for the power.

    If it was all about power and pain then why wouldn't a man just kidnap a little boy and torture him without ever doing anything sexual?

    In Richmond CA there is a rape in the news because a whole bunch of young men raped a 15 year old girl in public for two hours. Many witnesses came and went and some watched for a while and took photos with their phones but nobody called the police. The general public would like to know what the hell all those people were thinking.
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2009
  22. Bells Staff Member

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    Yes, I am helpless. You're the one advocating sexual segregation, the hijab and touting Saudi Arabia as examples, and I am helpless.

    But it is good that you have re-quoted "point 3". Because it just goes to show, again, just how much you simply do not get it. Not only does your "point 3" not answer the questions I asked you, but it again points to your caveman like attitude towards women. Your "point 3", where in your self deluded wisdom, you apparently attempted to describe how women can not contribute to her own rape. I have highlighted the parts that make you look like an idiot:

    That about sums it up really.

    What's the matter? Still cannot answer the questions?

    What? You don't think pregnant women are raped? You think that only women in sexy clothes are raped or sexually assaulted?

    http://www.news24.com/Content/SouthAfrica/News/1059/4f2966ac03b74d559462de366d725564/16-11-2007-08-10/Robbers_rape_pregnant_woman

    http://www.seacoastonline.com/articles/20090305-NEWS-903050424

    http://www.wsmv.com/news/10988260/detail.html

    http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2009/03/samuel_robinson_arraigned_on_r.html

    Want me to go on?

    Yes, because it really is obvious when you say that it's not really her fault she is raped, no matter what "big opportunities" she offered her rapist.

    Which actually made no logical sense, not surprisingly.

    And those supposed points still did not answer the questions. Not only that, they only further proved just how much you actually do not understand.

    I await your actually answering those questions and providing some examples.
     
  23. scifes In withdrawal. Valued Senior Member

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    do you read and forget, or is it you don't read at all?

     

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