Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by ElectricFetus, Feb 3, 2017.
Especially if supposedly intelligent and sane people keep blaming the "other side".
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That definitively is not a Christ teaching. Now we are on the other side with politicals Imams.
Those are not are not God Fearing men.
I don't if he said so or was it Moses . But to give courage to people to act. God is blamed.
The head of the largest Christian church in the world claimed it was.
Well, they are certainly as God-fearing as the Pope.
I got one better now:
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Matt Bors, 24 January 2017 (via Daily Kos Comics)
The question of whether it is okay to "punch a Nazi" is only complicated if we are determined to make it so.
Bob, who likes to make Nazi gestures and shout slogans in German, tapping canteloupe at the supermarket? Probably not an appropriate time to clock him.
But, seriously, identifying as a Nazi is pretty much an inherent threat to anyone around a person who isn't a Nazi. As much as we admonish one another toward civility, there are some standards in lieu of justice by which the sumbish haddit comin', y'know?
And that's the thing. Take a bit like sticks and stones, and the question of whether words can hurt. Even before it was demonstrated that, yes, words hurt, pretty much everyone knew there was a limit; that's why American society, for instance, has a doctrine of fightin' words. Seriously, you utter fightin' words and you don't get to complain if someone clocks you in the teeth.
Put on your Nazi gear and go strutting around like you're some kind of fucking patriot? Yeah, plenty of people are going to start looking around for a section of two-by-four to clock you with. And just as many juries would acquit as convict, and in a weird way, society is kind of okay with that, as if we know we can't really endorse this shit, but come on, at some point it's not a matter of how we despise our most despised, but respect them. After all, take a Nazi up on his effort to pick a fight, and you're honoring him.
Or something like that.
To the one, I believe in human rights, so you don't go clocking Nazis just for playing dress-up and making themselves known.
To the other, I'm only going to protect the dangerously stupid from themselves for so long. I can't walk each Nazi around town by the hand in order to explain to all the otherwise decent people that he really does have the right to depict himself as this manner of excrement, so ... right.
Besides, the other test is how we treat our most vulnerable, which means that in the moment instead of coddling the Nazi and telling him what a super job he's doing, triage generally suggests I will more likely be attending the victim.
In truth I think the better question is to call out Saul: Would you leave the bleeding man to die because you believe he's a Nazi?
And the answer is pretty straightforward: As long as triage says that's how it goes. Because, yeah, if I'm establishing triage, Nazis are near the bottom of the priority ladder compared to, say, wounded children. As Nazis are civilians, though, that means they come before police officers. Then again, how many days will absolutely require me to choose because the nine year old who was just eating lunch comes before the delusional Nazi who was shooting suspected Jews comes before the cop who accidentally shot him by missing the innocent and unarmed black man. In that moment of pure hypothetical bullshit, when all three―child, Nazi, and cop―have exactly the same chance and time to live, the answer is clear: Arrest the black man.
Which, in turn, is completely unrealistic: I mean, really, a cop is going to miss an unarmed black man? Fine, he'll just keep shooting. It's an unarmed black man, after all, the most dangerous force on the planet.
Meanwhile, half of the rest of us will be trying to save the kid while everyone else argues over the Nazi and the cop because a Nazi is a Nazi and everybody knows that the sacrifice of being a police officer means you always come before the people you purport to protect.
I say, if you really want to punch the Nazi, take your fucking chances. Vendetta? Revenge? Either way, you become some manner of martyr. And there's always the third alternative, that you might actually get away with it. Because, you know, that's the thing. This is America, where a jury will tell you a woman was asking for it because of how she was dressed. But for the fact of the Nazi being a Nazi, we might otherwise expect the same standard of justice. Oh, right, he's also most likely a male, so, never mind; he'll get a better standard.
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The cryptic oneliners and videos again - what would the wingies do without them? post an argument? Unlikely.
The Left is once again the problem - and as usual not neatly dressed, but scruffy and unwashed and uncivilized.
And the entire Left is responsible for anything anybody does anywhere while claiming to be on the left - broken windows in a Starbucks in California, say, or the dumbest thing anyone in BLM ever did. But the entire Right is not even responsible for Donald Trump.
Nice to know some traditions never change.
Listen to kangaroo boy again, with the following little facts in mind: the Iraq war was, and is, a big deal even compared with Vietnam (lasted longer, killed almost as many innocents, cost even more, did more damage to US foreign relations and the US military, and is proving harder to get out of); the W&Cheney administration did in fact do a lot of serious damage, were in fact very bad people; guys like Milo, however affable, are not harmless - he's the voice of the bullshitter justifying the thug, an Overton window mover for American fascism (of course he should not be muzzled by force - but not because he's harmless, he isn't: because we accept the harm he does as the price of the principle).
Or try a simple reality check, good for most examples of hippie punching by folks in terminal denial:
Imagine a world in which kangaroo boy were dealing with anything substantial - say, if street punk C students from Berkeley were routinely handed control of the US government, and the anti-Zionist Starbucks windowbreakers were their righthand men with real power,
like frat punk C students from Yale and rich daddy bigmouth bullies from boarding school and Wharton are, with anti-Semitic slanderers as their righthand men.
Then kangaroo boy would have something to talk about.
As far as punching a Nazi? I'm on record as saying it's ok to punch a flag-burner, if they are impolite enough wave it in the wrong face at the wrong time - say the VFW club parking lot on the 4th of July. Can't have a double standard.
All the usual suspects, oh boy the regressive leftist could not help themselves and have come.
At a moral level I don't see a reason not to, at a practical level I don't see why it it should. Practically it is impossible for a crowd, a mob, a bunch of hugbox close minded people to accurately determine someone's guilt of being a nazi. Now I have watched the interview of a Richard Spencer and the man is laughable, he is only a threat if he had the means, and it is the means we need to fight. As long as this man has no power to implement his aaah "peaceful ethnic cleansing" I see no reason to go beyond pointing and laughing, as long as he is powerless I may find his speech laughably disgusting, but I will defend his right to speak it. I'm sure some would say that the fascists have power now, they have a man devoid of reason or principles in power to rally behind, why not punch him in the face, well once again we need to talk about what is practical.
Attacking him has made the left once again look like crazy assholes hell bent on self-righteous justice, the ever larger riots that fall for Milos trolling, make the left look bad, and feed into the narrative that iceaura thinks is the conservative's fault, conservatives did not make all these people riot to make the left look bad, they did it themselves. Fundamentally when people decide they are so right and righteous in their views that they can assault other people it means we are not far from total civil war, and practically and morally I think that is something we must try to prevent until it become the only option left. Yes we do have a pig boar as president who is actively trying to ban people and kick out people, we NEED to stop him, but riots and attacking anyone we easily labeled as fascist, a label that gets grossly overused to begin with, will lead to the opposite: it will give trump and the republicans reason to attack us, and they have the upper hand right now. Right now the best way to fight is to rally, organize and beat them in the next elections in 2018, which is already a uphill battle. If that fails then yes it may come to war, and punching one man in the face is grossly inadequate, I would recommend marching on Washington and doing what things I can't say now because it will trigger NSA servers and the secret service, go for the head first so to speak. Certainly we won't be able to march on Washington if previous riots have already exposed our intent and marshal law has already been declared and use to grant that pig boar absolute power, the exact opposite of what we want!
Now look at that comic Tiassa posted: anarchists are being portrayed as captain America? Anarchists are as bad as fascists in that their ideology will kill millions if given power, the black bloc going about destroying property and attacking people is not something we should celebrate and lionize because they punched one "white nationalist" twice. It is clear that if it does come time for morally justified violence, even if we do win, if it is antifa at the lead, the ends result will be WORSE than Trump. A simple census of revolutions throughout history finds most of them usually results in worse government than what they overthrow, and communist revolutions particularly have an abysmal track record, and that not even counting anarcho-communist! The left is in no position to wage a morally justified war if it the likes of antifa at our vanguard, we must clear house so to speak and have a sane rational ideology and plan for an alternate government, a plan beyond "punch them in the face" or "fuck starbucks because it is run by a Zionist", or worse anarchism!
Punching any human being/creature is not ok.
The Left is losing the argument by simply refusing to have a conversation. This bodes ill for the liberal side and only encourages a counter move from the Right. I know the political leaning of most gun owners in this country. I'm sorry to say this won't end well unless the radical Left gets a grip on their own passions.
"The Left" is not involved, in general.
They don't make "the left" look bad: that's bullshit supplied by kangaroo boy and his fellow travelers. Nobody like me has anything to do with them, for example. How would anyone even know these people are on "the Left" with people like me? Are they? They don't look like it. Note that kangaroo boy isn't providing a hint of evidence for his claim that these windowbreakers are even on "the Left" at all, let alone with my crowd - we have to take his word for it, and since he doesn't know that Milo is vicious liar with an affable demeanor who does in fact do considerable harm, his judgment is obviously suspect.
And you think the Clinton PC crowd is "the Left" and I'm in it, so your judgment is garbage.
So who's doing this bad rioting? Me? No. You? No. Any leftist I know, anybody like me? Not a chance. So Trump and the Republicans have no reason to attack any of us - just as they have no reason to deport Iranians, or spend a lot of money investigating illegal voting by illegal residents, or spend 50 billion dollars building the New Berlin Wall on the Mexican border.
They never have had any reason to attack us, or anybody really except the Saudi terrorist financiers behind 9/11.
You need to pay attention to the following fact: they are liars, who make shit up to justify attacking people. Got it? Their behavior has nothing to do with the reality of anyone else's behavior. Acorn committed no voting fraud. Shirley Sherrod never discriminated against anyone by race. Illegal aliens did not cast millions of fraudulent votes for Clinton. White people do not suffer from significant and oppressive racial discrimination in the US. Obama is not a secret Muslim.
Nothing you do, say, don't do, or don't say, has anything to do with what they will accuse you of, and attack you for. It never has.
You've been surrounded by this conversation you say you want to have your entire adult life. You can't hear with your fingers in your ears, going "la la la la la" with an occasional "liberal" and "regressive left" thrown in. You can't hear with your head up your ass and a brain full of Breitbart.
So any time. But you have to listen - to the actual Left. Right now, you don't even know who they are.
I don't read Breitbart, Been to the site once. No, I attended one of their protests and have a very good feel for what they are about. I listened and understood. The Left is crumbling under its own weight. I suppose I should take pleasure in watching it happen, but it's actually very sad. I don't believe all liberals are insane, but that does seem to be the road they are traveling as a group, paving the way for a second term of Trump.
People are rejecting what they see on the Left, because the Left is just turning uglier with every passing day.
The left had been successful in conning and intimidating people, to accept their way, with the help of the media. For example, 60% of the US people did not want ObamaCare. But through lying, bullying and intimidating, it was passed in spite of the will of the people. The difference now is Trump does not fall for it, although some of the establishment on the right is still cringing by habit and ready to give in.
What appears to have happened is those on the right are watching Trump and learning how to ignore this. The left is still using the same tactics, but now they are only effective for 1-3 days since the media air support gets shifted. They now seem to lack the longer term impact they once had.
Trump figured out how to neutralize this, by his speed of action. The left is more geared to the snail pace of big government, where little gets done over a longer period of time. This keep the focus for better intimidation impact. But with Trump, he moves so fast to where by the time the intimidation appears, that is old news, thereby diverting air support; media.
This is actually good for the new left, since it will eventually come to the conclusion that the only thing fast enough to keep up ,will be logic and truth. The games of emotional appeal take too long to stage and choreograph. Truth and logical arguments are more rapid fire. This is why the left will censor those on the right, who can do this, since the staged play of the left is too slow to keep up with rapids changes to the script.
I don't believe in punching Nazis either. It only riles them up, and it inflicts unnecessary suffering.
Someone get the true scottman please! While some argue Antifa is not on the left, they should argue that harder, I'm not pro anarchist anything.
Well you keep yammering like them!
Now anyways when the hammer comes down by trump, the republicans, by the voters it is THEY lumping US with the likes of antifa and the black bloc, so either we deal with antifa or they will deal with antifa and us at the same time.
Act on crimes, not on people.
Acting on people is what got us in this sitation in the first place. "You're a Jew. You are to be treated badly for that reason alone."
Only if he invades Poland. He gets one or two freebies, then you have to draw the line.
I been reading "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich: A History of Nazi Germany" on audible, I'm right at the part where Hitler and Stalin have made a pack and Hitler has set a date for invading Poland, so you almost, ALMOST, spoiled it for me.
I don't think Tiassa and Iceaura could understand this point, just as the nazis demonized the jews to the point that mass murder was acceptable, to the regressive anyone that they label as fascist increasingly should not be treated with civility or even like humans.
You control whether you are a Nazi, and Nazi ideology is inherently dangerous. You don't control your Jewish heritage, and Judaism is relatively benign compared to Nazism.
I won't tell you how it ends but my great-grandparents came from the part of Germany that is now part of Poland.
Separate names with a comma.