# Is midnight today or tomorrow?

Discussion in 'Science & Society' started by dsdsds, Mar 11, 2009.

1. ### Write4UValued Senior Member

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Perhaps this example may clarify;

Join two tetrahedrons together you get an octahedron.

Now the 2D plane dividing the octahedron belongs to both tetrahedrons. It is the bottom plane of each tetrahedron at the same time, but one tetrahedron is pointing up, the other tetrahedron is pointing down. But they share the same bottom plane, one side facing up, the other side facing down. It is a shared 2D aspect (plane) of both tetrahedrons.

The same as 24:00:00, as the end of one 24 hr set (day) equals 00:00:00, as the beginning of the next 24 hr set (day).

Last edited: Aug 23, 2017

3. ### DaveC426913Valued Senior Member

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In post 252 you made an analogy with beer bottles, but applied the analogy wrong, leading to an incorrect conclusion.

This thread is about instants of time (such as 24:00:00); these instants are not analogous to bottles, they are analogous to the space between bottles.

You've been compounding your error with each subsequent post. My emphasis isn't emotional; it's indicative, i.e. I'm drawing your attention to the error and correction. After all, we're not the only ones reading this.

Last edited: Aug 23, 2017
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5. ### sideshowbobSorry, wrong number.Valued Senior Member

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Care to try counting that again? I get a hexahedron.

7. ### DaveC426913Valued Senior Member

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Heh. Good catch.
Two pyramids make an octahedron.

8. ### Write4UValued Senior Member

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OK, I should have said join two "four sided pyramidal pentahedrons" It was sloppy on my part.

http://www.mathsisfun.com/definitions/pentahedron.html

The point was that the "connecting" center plane is the bottom of each pentahedron, one side facing up, one side facing down.

Perhaps this positive/negative aspect cancels the four point center plane altogether and you end up with an undivided octahedron, which has eight sides. But in geometry an octahedron actually has nine planes (if we include the single center plane), not ten as suggested by the sum of two five sided pentahedrons.

The same as joining two tetrahedrons and geometrically end up with seven planes, not eight, or if you remove the center plane, you get a sextahedron, which does not seem to exist.

It gets curiouser when considering a sphere.

Does this object have two or three planes?

Last edited: Aug 23, 2017
9. ### StrangerInAStrangeLandSubQuantum MechanicValued Senior Member

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^^^
You criticize the person when you are not satisfied with the discussion.
You say X, I say not X & you have to come back & say X again. And usually I am the 1 to drop it.
You try to explain your side & I try to explain my side & it does no good for either to tell the other they are confused.

I have no errors to compound. You are drawing attention to your errors.

<>

10. ### DaveC426913Valued Senior Member

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Analogies are intended to shed light on complex subjects - to make them easier to see.
Your analogy doesn't do that. It actually obscures the subject.

11. ### Write4UValued Senior Member

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It would make sense if you removed the crates and just counted 240 bottles lined up touching each other and then counting them in sets of 24. you would end up with ten sets of 24 bottles, each set starting with the number 1 and ending with a full count of 24. That would make the 24th bottle of each set equivalent to a zero state of the next set of bottles, which would again start with, 1 bottle, 2 bottle, etc, etc.......

12. ### DaveC426913Valued Senior Member

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Sure.

Here's a diagram showing counting bottles as sets of 24.
Does this provide more clarity than the diagram in post 262?

Last edited: Aug 25, 2017
13. ### Write4UValued Senior Member

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No, I agree with your analogy 100%

I was actually trying to emphasize the fact that the crates analogy was confusing the issue. But it was really superfluous, as you clearly demonstrated it in post#262 in chronological terms.

Last edited: Aug 25, 2017
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14. ### StrangerInAStrangeLandSubQuantum MechanicValued Senior Member

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^^^
I will not go on&on arguing back&forth with you.

<>

15. ### DaveC426913Valued Senior Member

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I think that's best for all.

16. ### kx000Valued Senior Member

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In reality there is no today or tomorrow, one night and one day.

17. ### Write4UValued Senior Member

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That's just semantics. Our 24 hr day is based on the earth's rotation and the 24 hr pattern emerges. Actually it isn't a perfect 24 hr rotation either. It's a close approximation.

18. ### kx000Valued Senior Member

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I believe in infinite singular eternity where time can't be counted.

19. ### DaveC426913Valued Senior Member

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I believe in unicorns*, but I don't try to raise that in a discussion on a science forum without being able to defend it with evidence.

*I don't believe in unicorns

20. ### kx000Valued Senior Member

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Time must exist.

21. ### DaveC426913Valued Senior Member

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That's a far cry from an 'infinite singular eternity where time can't be counted'.

22. ### superstring01Moderator

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There's the way it functions in our lives and what it technically is. Like calling a tomato a vegetable. Sure. Maybe it's technically a fruit, but in English we sort of unconsciously think that vegetables aren't sweet and go on savory things. That's not a hard-and-fast rule, but a heuristic I guess. Midnight for most of us is 'today' because for most of us, staying up until midnight makes it today. It's the act of going to sleep for the night that creates the transition from today to tomorrow. So while effectively it's today, quite literally, it's the first moment of tomorrow.

I used to think about this a lot. I've worked a LOT of third shifts in my life and have stayed up and partied all night. There is a point where even if you stay up all night, it starts to become the next day. For me and most of the people I know, it's somewhere between 3am - 4am. By 4am, it's always the next day, but for most people 3am is still the previous day emotionally. For me, given that I wake up at 4am, that sounds about right.

23. ### kx000Valued Senior Member

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It's the same thing.