Is midnight today or tomorrow?

Discussion in 'Science & Society' started by dsdsds, Mar 11, 2009.

  1. sweetpea Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    769
    Is ''the origin of a definable space and time'' the same as ''the origin of space and time''?
    Are there models for the origin of space and time?
    The space and time of the ''quantum froth'' has nothing to say about the origin of space and time, it just says their undefinable.
     
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  3. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    5,075
    As I understand it , there are some models that can actually create something from nothing, strange as that may seem.

    Suppose there is a abstract mathematical law (a higher order) that forbids the continued existence of nothing.
    An abstract mathematical law of duality, which demands that a state of nothing would also have an opposite state of anti-nothing. We already use the term "zero state", but that does not necessarily mean an absolute nothing. It could mean an abstract balance between a positive state and a negative state. IOW a permittive condition.

    We would get, a single instant of an infinity of nothingness, which would immediately collapse into a singularity and the creation of pure energy (a true causal force) creating a mega-quantum event resulting in the BB. From that point we know pretty well the evolutionary process of the inflationary epoch, etc.

    But I do agree, both concepts of an infinite existence of either nothingness or somethingness seem unlikely. IMO there must a have been an original causality, either active or passive.
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2017
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  5. StrangerInAStrangeLand SubQuantum Mechanic Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    13,189
    ^^^
    My "choices" are I know & I do not know.

    <>
     
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  7. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    5,075
    There are many things about the universe we didn't know then, but we know now.
    Knowledge begins with the question.
     
  8. river

    Messages:
    9,791
    Agreed

    And knowledge continues ......
     
  9. Dinosaur Rational Skeptic Valued Senior Member

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    4,618
    Wow !! 245 Posts to this Thread,
     
  10. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    Wrong. 246.
     
  11. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    7,223
    Dang. 247.
     
  12. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    7,223
    Dang.
     
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  13. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    5,075
    Can we say that a full count is the finish of a set. i.e. 24:00:00 hrs is the full count of the previous day, but it is also the start of the new set, the next day, which begins its count @ 00:00 hrs (if we want to use minutes as our standard.)
    Some sports count in hundreds or even thousands of seconds. But the race is in a state of zero time until the gun is fired or the flag lowered. That's when the "count" begins.

    I still like the military analogy of 24:00 hrs. of the previous day is equal to 00:00 hrs of the next day.
    The arbitrary use of zero as a convenient starting point.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/24-hour_clock
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2017
  14. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    7,223
    Yes, this is unambiguous.

    Monday 24:00:00 is coincident with Tuesday 00:00.
     
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  15. StrangerInAStrangeLand SubQuantum Mechanic Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    13,189
    ^^^
    So the 24th bottle in a case of beer is coincident with no bottles in the next case.

    <>
    252
     
  16. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    7,223
    Haha, good one, but no.

    24:00:00 and 00:00:00 both reference an instant between two durations (it happens to be the same instant) - they do not refer to any duration.

    In your analogy, you are labeling the durations (the bottles), not the instant between them (the cardboard between bottle 24, and bottle 1 of the next case).
     
  17. StrangerInAStrangeLand SubQuantum Mechanic Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    13,189
    ^^^
    No.
    24 refers the end & 0 refers to nothing. In counting or measuring 24 of something, the number 24 is the very end of it, not between it & another 1`.

    <>
     
  18. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    7,223
    That would be wrong.

    0 refers to the instant preceding the first duration. And the cardboard divider before the first bottle.



    As W4U likes to point out, the labeling of the numbers is arbitrary, including 0. You could just as easily decide to start counting with 0:00 hours as noon, or bottles from the middle of the case if you wanted.

    Now, the last hour is 12, delimited by 12:00:00, followed immediately by 13. There's no "nothing" involved.
     
  19. StrangerInAStrangeLand SubQuantum Mechanic Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    13,189
    ^^^
    Talking about cardboard dividers only muddles things.

    <>
     
  20. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    7,223
    You brought the beer analogy into it. You misapplied the analogy. That's what's confusing you.

    A zero duration instant in time between two hours is not analogous to a beer bottle - it is analogous to the (ideally) zero space between two beer bottles.

    Hour 1 is delimited (bracketed, bounded) by instant 00:00:00 and instant 01:00:00. Just as
    Bottle 1 is delimited by divider 0 and divider 1.

    Hour 24 is delimited by instant 23:00:00 and instant 24:00:00. Just as
    Bottle 24 is delimited by divider 23 and divider 24.
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2017
  21. StrangerInAStrangeLand SubQuantum Mechanic Valued Senior Member

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    13,189
    ^^^
    ^^^
    I did not misapply anything & am not the least bit confused. The beer analogy works great yet talking about cardboard dividers muddles things.
    Hour 24 does not start with 23:00. 23:00 is the very end of hour 23. Hour 24 starts immediately after 23:00 & ends with 24:00.

    <>
     
  22. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    7,223
    Beer bottles are non-zero-sized entities (say, 2 inches), as are durations of time (say, one hour). You can have a large or small beer bottle, and you can have a large or small duration (you could always count seconds rather than hours).

    The instant (zero duration) between two durations is analogous to the the division (zero distance) between two beer bottles.

    The beer analogy, as you have applied it, fails for the very reason that you get the wrong result.

    Get the analogy right!
     
  23. StrangerInAStrangeLand SubQuantum Mechanic Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    13,189
    ^^^
    What the heck is your problem?

    <>
     

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