is life really generating order or is it just our false narrative perspective?

Discussion in 'Astronomy, Exobiology, & Cosmology' started by globali, Jan 27, 2019.

  1. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    .. The bit about asking the universe questions came from a well known cosmologist.
    Almost all cosmologists and astrophysicists describe their emotions of "discovery" of prior existing universal mathematical values and functions.

    At Cern, we asked the universe to produce a Higgs boson. Apparently we used the right theoretical and applied mathematics and our question was answered by the universe producing a Higgs boson for us to see, just for a moment.....a little peek....

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  3. Beaconator Registered Senior Member

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    Like pong, or the game where you swing a ring onto a hook,
     
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  5. Beaconator Registered Senior Member

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    How about a big one? My grandmother was playing a game much like golf at cracker barrel. But instead of jumping over and collecting she was arranging the marbles by a variety of factors. They were semiprecious stones
     
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  7. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

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    a computer does not exist without a human.
    the human consciousness came before the computer
    mathematics is only discovered after human consciousness has occurred
    mathematics can not be learnt by a single human in 1 lifetime.
    they must have several other human life times of documented study to learn from as they learn

    there may be some type of formula for this

    humans must always continue to "win" to survive.
    this requires semi ideal outcomes on an ongoing basis.
    the consequential total number of outcomes that fail to deliver the outcome required for ideal benefits is vast and innumerable.
    the human has evolved to forget these things to allow them to continue seeking the positive outcomes to survive.

    planetary science, the creation of suns & entire solar systems define this as an indisputable fact

    though... harking back to my pick of words... "self" being attributed to the human consciousness having an awareness to define the nature of mathematics as a mechanism of the mind.
    this is why i was making the point in my use of the word. i see it as an aspect of the human psyche, like saying "brain" does the universe have a brain ?
    tricky question
     
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  8. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    IMO, the concept of "self" begins with "superposition" of two possible potentials with only one possible outcome. As well as in GR, where all things happen relative to a self-referential frame. Self-reference (also known as Impredicativity)

    Self-referential:
    I read that as the concept of "self " can be applied to all physical or metaphysical objects if there is a distinguishing characteristic.
     
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  9. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

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    "the number 1 was self referencing ..."
     
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  10. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    I hesitate to use the number 1 which logically can be a single (1) set of any value as a self-referential object. I like to use relative values as a generic term for theoretical mathematics.

    Moreover, the self-reference of an object or pattern needs not be conscious, just orderly, chemically, electrically, hydraulically, sensory.

    Example: the self-referencing Fibonacci sequence in seed arrangement in Sunflowers which also have the sentient but unconscious ability to calculate the sun's position relative to their orientation (heliotropism)
     
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  11. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

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    thematically... a single number can not be self referencing ...
    thus the function of the individual as a single consciousness can not be or is... = a different eventual value tot he value of 'self' ?

    er-go, e.g
    the consciousness is self referencing, but only when it finds its self inside 2 possible outcomes.
     
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  12. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    "Movement in the direction of greatest satisfaction" (or least resistance).
    Gravity is such a system.

    This tends to resolve all value dependent choices mathematically, without the need for consciousness....

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  13. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

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    ... unified field theory meets thermodynamics.
    comes to mind
    has a sense of coarse plotting 2 positions on the same wave function while only able to see the individual results of each position.
     
  14. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    Nah. I think that would make it a contaminant.
     
  15. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    Some limited localities have lead in the dirt, rock, etc - natural exposure.
    Most of the lead in modern human beings comes from its use in motor fuel, some (an increasing fraction of a decreasing exposure, as leaded gas has been phased out) from its use in paint and plumbing.
    It is solidly correlated with social violence (murder, rape, etc), in cross-cultural statistical comparisons.
     
  16. exchemist Valued Senior Member

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    Lead has been out of motor fuel for almost two decades. From what I can find about elimination rates, lead from that source should have largely gone by now. Perhaps old paint and old water pipes then. (We still have an old lead water main to the house from the street, but we had it tested and the lead level is very low, probably because we are in a hard water area.)
     
  17. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    It's much reduced (That's how the correlation of exposure with social violence was established - violence goes up and down as gasoline lead does, with a 16 to 18 year lag, all over the world). But not gone - especially not in the bones of those who grew up immersed in it. Tooth samples from skeletons of people exposed in gestation and childhood will show layers of lead-infused enamel a thousand years from now.
    (There are areas still actively or recently exposed to lead in motor fuel additives - some parts of China, say, and https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/countries-that-still-use-leaded-gasoline.html, etc.; and there are industrial sources - factories and smelters and mines and e-waste recycling and so forth. )

    Leaching from water pipes can vary seasonally, btw. And of course there is always the chance of a Flint Michigan, event.
     
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  18. globali Registered Senior Member

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    It seems that many things regarding fine tuning are beyond our reach. Its not that we evolve around them. We are super lucky. Look at the parameters of the early Universe. There is a tremendous amount of fine tuning of truly improbable events that clearly cannot be ignored.
    And since science is the effort of human to explain things without the need of god or an intelligent Universe (which i cannot find how this different from the god explanation), i think the most likely explanation is that there is an issue with our perspective.

    However, there are 2 versions in this perspective explanation. The first one is that if we were not here, we would not be making this conversation. Some questions arise however, like why did we get lucky?
    The other version is that we interpret a series of events from the perspective of the winner. Its like picking a number from 0 to 9 and repeating this thousand times, till we get a thousand-digit number. From the perspective of this number, all series of picks were fine tuned for him to be made. This has weaknesses as well, because if lets say nuclear force was stronger, we would have had a much more dense universe with no chance of producing an alternative form of life-like events
     
  19. globali Registered Senior Member

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    cannot agree more.
     
  20. globali Registered Senior Member

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    The other explanation i can give is that human consciousness is just some chemical reactions and we try to objectify our position, by deluding that the universe should play in terms we are familiar or terms that we are wired to believe. We might try to explain phenomena based on anthropomorphic criteria or human experiences. For instance why should the universe be different than it is, or have a choice? Or why should it start? Or why should there be nothing instead of something as the default state?

    Maybe the answer to the fine tuning is this: because it is what it is.
     
  21. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    That is the general consensus, yes.

    Wherein lies the delusion?

    We see the world, we build models that predict what it will do.

    Well, some might. Those of the science discipline work hard not to.

    That is the general consensus, yes.

    Problem is, it is not useful. So we keep looking for refinement.
     
  22. globali Registered Senior Member

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    why is it not useful and needs refinement?
     
  23. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 69 years old Valued Senior Member

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    As far as physics is concerned there is no such thing as fine tuning

    It's a one note song

    As far as variable conditions for life there is a reasonable wide range within life can occur

    This range is drastically reduced if only human life is considered

    Life is obviously constrained by physics but those physics which produce environments where life can exist, hey presto life exist

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