is life really generating order or is it just our false narrative perspective?

Discussion in 'Astronomy, Exobiology, & Cosmology' started by globali, Jan 27, 2019.

  1. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 69 years old Valued Senior Member

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    Again, physics in a non sentient Universe has no idea of your likes or dislikes and impervious to your likes / dislikes

    The point being the billions of reactions are decidedly NOT the same

    Ummmm physics vs Sky Daddy

    I pick physics

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  3. globali Registered Senior Member

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    oh no!! i wanted to make the 100th comment! just my OCD!!
    I completely agree!! Reality exists even without us or irrespective of what we believe!!
    Even our human thinking is just chemical reactions. How can you trust it?
     
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  5. globali Registered Senior Member

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  7. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Max Tegmark proposes that the entire universe can be explained through the mathematics of some 33 numbers (fundamental relative values) and a handful of equations, the common denominators in all physical and metaphysical patterns (fields) including solids.

    And of course we have proposed panspermia.

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    https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/01/190123144519.htm
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2019
  8. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 69 years old Valued Senior Member

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    Not sure about you but I don't. I do read up about what others think about many different subjects

    If scientists say the Sun operates by nuclear fusion I go there to the middle of the Sun and check

    You tell me our human thinking is just chemical reactions and I have made a appointment, next week, to be srunk down and go check it out

    To much effort to go back and check for
    panspermia

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    PS just chemical reactions - you missed out electrical
     
  9. exchemist Valued Senior Member

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    Reported for thread hijacking.
     
  10. exchemist Valued Senior Member

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    This is ridiculous. I have already given you plenty of examples of order arising in chemistry, due to the laws of nature, operating on molecules or ions. So what does it mean to say "by chance". Is it "by chance" that an object in your hand falls when you let go of it?
     
  11. spidergoat Turd Reich Valued Senior Member

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    If there is a small chance that something will happen on any particular day, consider that a million years will multiply the chances of that thing happening a million times.
     
  12. globali Registered Senior Member

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    you are right!! i meant : can't trust.
    it was a typo. sorry about that

    and also dont forget molecular tension, or physical forces that is well known to determine cell behaviours such as if they will replicate, etc
     
  13. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    Uh. No. By orders of magnitude.
     
  14. globali Registered Senior Member

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    i agree!! i am not saying it is impossible, but my feeling is that sometimes its more difficult to maintain something than to obtain it. However, if you can have a stable foundation and some elements can be slowly added.

    i agree!! but i was obviously referring to the constant build up of order. How likely is that in 10 million years we will have living crystal's, like crystal originated transformers?
    (Ice Megatron would be cool)

    crystalls look awesome, they fascinate us, because they make structures that look like us. And we ignore any surrounding events because we don't recognize patterns in them. imagine having extra layers of order...easily better that viruses or prions.we would talk to them
    but how easy (statistically and thermodynamically) would be for crystal naturally maintain an extra layer of order on top of the existing one?
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2019
  15. exchemist Valued Senior Member

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    Thermodynamically it is dead easy. Each step only reduces the entropy of the structure very slightly and there is ample increase in entropy going on all around to compensate and "drive" a local entropy decrease thermodynamically.

    One has to remember, too, that light from the sun is black body radiation equivalent to a temperature of 5700K, whereas waste heat from terrestrial processes is rejected into an environment at around 10-30C. So that temperature drop implies a big entropy increase is available, in processes that take in light and reject ambient heat. (High temperature heat has lower entropy than low temperature heat, because of S=Q/T).
     
  16. globali Registered Senior Member

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    but why crystals dont go any further since that is its dead easy?

    is there a way to somehow measure all that changes on earth and get an idea of what life as whole does? and verify the entropic decreases of life as a system over time?
     
  17. globali Registered Senior Member

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    i mean if life is a sum of things that create order, then the entire biomass would be expected to be having a slightly decreased entropy over time, measured through the heat change conversion differences over time. I know that it would be difficult to measure such small biomass caused changes, because you need to adjust for strong confoundings, such as sun heat waves, volcanoes, etc, but maybe a multi-parametric analysis can help!! just a thought
     
  18. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    I'm not speaking about numbers, just types.
    Numbers run into the billions, types about three hundred according to Hazen.
    What Are the Four Organic Molecules Found in Living Things?
    https://education.seattlepi.com/four-organic-molecules-found-living-things-5567.html
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2019
  19. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    You make an error by assuming that it is impossible, which is incorrect.
    It is possible. Obviously you did not listen close enough to Hazen, who explains the processes of chemical evolution in detail.
    The earth alone has performed (Two trillion, quadrillion, quadrillion, quadrillion) chemical experiments in some 4 billion years of it's existence.
    Think about this number. Probability is based on numerical statistics and time.

    If you want to compare this to all possible chemical reactions in the universe over a period of 14 billion years, we can't even do the maths.
    Hazen posited that "life" occurring somewhere in the universe is inevitable, given the combinatory richness of vast spaces and times.
     
  20. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    From what I gather, crystals are already used in living systems. Molecular lattices (crystalline structures) are abundant in living organisms.

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    https://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/bi050427o


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    Crystal structure of human lysyl oxidase-like 2 (hLOXL2) in a precursor state

    https://www.pnas.org/content/115/15/3828


    Exchemist will correct me if I'm wrong........

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  21. globali Registered Senior Member

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    There are no authorities in science any more. Only experts.
    Authorities existed only in back in the middle ages.
    Usually from a history perspective, all major revolutions needed time, because most authorities usually were on the opposite side.
    It took 300years for Copernicus model to become mainstream, 400years for Versalius to bury Galen's medicine, etc.....

    I am not saying Hagen is an authority or what he is saying is wrong, but you seem to attribute an almost authoritative status.
     
  22. globali Registered Senior Member

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    Everyone knows that life was created from a sort of chemical evolution. We all agree with that. And that the possible first organized forms could have been selected. That's like discovering that the sky is blue.
    If earth performed a quadrillion chemical experiments over 4billion years, and crystals are ordered structures and crystals are super abundant in the solar system, why don't we see crystal based mega-super-ordered constructions, if they could have been selected?
    If quadrillion chemical experiments were performed, then the number of crystal-based experiments is probably orders of magnitude more.
     
  23. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Obviously you have not seen the Hazen lecture....tsk, tsk.
    https://hazen.carnegiescience.edu/

    He is an authority. Your analogy to historical scientific abilities is outdated. Modern scientific methods cannot be compared to old-time science.
    But modern scientists do stand on the shoulders of those early pioneers.
     

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