is life really generating order or is it just our false narrative perspective?

Discussion in 'Astronomy, Exobiology, & Cosmology' started by globali, Jan 27, 2019.

  1. globali Registered Senior Member

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    Imagine that you have a flask full of some molecules that move randomly and you add external energy. Let’s also assume that the molecules are a little bit sticky and they attach to each other for a while. What you will see after a while is areas of clumps and dead space. That is how disorder looks.


    Now suppose the observer is a group of clumps. The observer may think that the purpose of this environment is to create clumps like him that die and get reborn. He be like: Hey, isn’t this place supposed to be a total chaos if you take into account the initial ingredients and the conditions? But that’s his false narrative.



    We now know that:

    1)All life relates to each other and an organism exist, because of...all the other life that exist.

    2)All life is related to each other and if you consider life as a whole thing, it becomes a more disordered thing.

    3)The number of chemical interactions in living systems is unimaginably large. The numbers are so vast, our intuition cannot grasp.

    4)Similar systems under the same laws of nature will lead to similar results that can be perceived as periodic phenomena.

    5)We ourselves are composed from tons of chemical reactions and we are a part of the resulting reactions of life, so we observe the system from an insider perspective.


    Do the similarities between the two systems suggest that we should be cautious when we arbitrarily refer to life systems as order-generating without actually measuring their entropic changes first??
     
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  3. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

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    please list them
    you have not listed them
    footnote
    the nature of an event is not nature in an event
    though it is a natured event as a pathology

    maybe you might like to re-compose your question around the entropy thing and ask something in a slightly different manner ?(assuming you wish to have discussion rather than wanting to collect people who just say yes)

    this appears to be an abstract religious ideology
    maybe you have posed the comment in a way that you did not mean for it to sound ?

    foot-foot p.s note

    i like your question
    its a great debate
    i have been listening to some eminent biologists & physicists discuss the topic in different forms.
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2019
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  5. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

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    subjective re-positioning of the self as the 3rd person to assert comprehension as an art of abstract non-conformity is more so a subconscious process of deciding to not comprehend.
    The self says to the self "i cant possibly comprehend this"
    which in its self is no big issue.
    but keep in mind, if you do this a lot, it hampers you ability to comprehend things.

    you will notice all the top achievers in the world have specific positive self talk routines.
    they have it, NOT to sound all cool and trendy. they do it because it makes a difference in them being the best of the best.

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  7. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 69 years old Valued Senior Member

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    is life really generating order or is it just our false narrative

    First define which definition of "life" you are using

    life
    \ˈlīf\
    noun
    • :the ability to grow, change, etc., that separates plants and animals from things like water or rocks
    • :the period of time when a person is alive
    • :the experience of being alive
    Merriam Webster dictionary

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  8. spidergoat Venued Serial Memberlist Valued Senior Member

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    No. Clumps aren't order. Life forms aren't random clumps. Life represents an increase in local order.
     
  9. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

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    the expiry of life is entropy in action ?(thus reverse entropy is the process of life creation) ?

    point of note
    intrinsic absolute is that energy is not external
    energy is all encompassing
    strong/weak etc etc...
    all matter is subject to energy(that is the nature of things and all things hinge on)

    coalescent action into clumps is an entropic process of energy that is inside & outside
    (if one argues that the universe natural state is a disorder of energy into all things...)
    then the formation of things is creation and creates order. the decay causes dis-order(entropy)

    imagine you have imagination and you dont need a box to frame it in.

    ..."the meal has already been cooked"
     
  10. exchemist Valued Senior Member

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    Not really. It is fairly obvious that forming long chain molecules, whether proteins, cellulose or DNA or whatever, involves entropy reduction relative to the monomer units from which they are assembled: http://thesciencedictionary.org/entropy-of-polymerization/
     
  11. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    Ok. How - exactly - did these clumps form, and how do they behave?
    Because we know how the clumps we call living beings form and behave, and how the ones we call rocks form and behave, and those are significant factors in telling them apart.
    If he's attributing "purpose" to the whole thing, he's formulating a religion.
    He be having a gap in his education, and not just in the Standard Written English used by scientists to communicate with each other: he been have having a mistaken idea of what "total chaos" looks like, and it been like messing with his head.
    He need to be like "I should take a class in thermodynamics, and learn how to calculate this stuff".
     
  12. globali Registered Senior Member

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    They are order from the perspective of a clump. A clump might ignore the entire system of chaos and think those clumps as separate entities.

    A clump as a reference frame will likely perceive other clumps like himself as separate entities and ignore the thermodynamics of the entire system. In any case, this was an example to show that the interactions of life should not be considered a-priori as ordered without measuring entropic changes first. For instance, compare a human at 1 year old and 25 year old. I would argue that the 1-year old will be more ordered because its body is a system that can live 25 years more than the 25-year old self.

    These clumps is how total chaos looks like. Absolute disorder will not come in the form of separated and dispersed molecules, but in the form of clumps and dead space (and a little bit of sticky molecules-this is a hypothetical experiment). The clumps will stay together for a while and then separate. Then other clumps will form, and so on.

    This is pretty much what creationists are doing as well. Attributing purpose to a natural process.


    He just needs a different perspective, not the clump-centric one. The right one.
     
  13. spidergoat Venued Serial Memberlist Valued Senior Member

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    That's not a thing.
     
  14. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 69 years old Valued Senior Member

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    Are you saying you are a creationist or that you agree with them?

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  15. exchemist Valued Senior Member

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    Thermodynamics is not relativity. Reference frames are irrelevant. I am afraid you are not making a great deal of sense at the moment.
     
  16. globali Registered Senior Member

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    Look!! We are the observers of our perspective of the world. We are just some chemical reactions inside a much larger system that is called life and we are in a planet that is moving relative to the sun, that is moving relatively to the galaxy, which is moving relatively to other galaxies, and so on and so on. To believe that what you see is not biased at all, in any way, is pure ignorance.

    No, but i am saying that by believing a priori that life is about creation of order out of disorder (without experimentally verifying this first) someone may be falling into the same fallacy as the creationists, and may not differ much from their way of thinking.
    It is just the result of the anthropocentric perception that life should be divided into individual organisms or separate functional units, ignoring the fact that everything with life exists only because there is other life with which it interacts. Thus, as in the case of the clumps, people ignore the entire picture and focus on individual parts of the system that functionally look like him, and so may easily have a false sense of order generation...
     
  17. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 69 years old Valued Senior Member

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    I am unaware that is a position

    Do you have a link to a published paper where this has been proposed?

    This sounds very very much like a vote for the UNIVERSE being a living entity

    Would that be a reasonable assumption?

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  18. spidergoat Venued Serial Memberlist Valued Senior Member

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    But a random clump of matter is neither orderly, sentient, or a form of life.
     
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  19. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 69 years old Valued Senior Member

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    You obviously have not seen some of the people I have seen

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  20. globali Registered Senior Member

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    No! I would say the exact opposite. That even human cognition and thought process is kinda overrated as it is nothing more than chemical reactions.

    Thinking and sentience are the results of chemical reactions. That's what we know. All our thoughts can be projected and have an effect in EEC or functional MRI's. Of course we believe there might be something more....but no valid scientific hypothesis exists on what that is.

    In the study of natural laws, anything can be used as a reference frame, despite the fact that not everything can think.
     
  21. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 69 years old Valued Senior Member

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    OK I got that wrong

    True, we are a whole bubbling bunch of chemical reactions, with some electrical activity which understands that it is a whole bubbling bunch of chemical reactions, with some electrical activity

    Of course we believe there might be something more

    Do WE? - or is a bit more YOU believe there MIGHT be something more?

    Since scientists understand much about human being a whole bubbling bunch of chemical reactions, with some electrical activity, (as well as other life forms living processes)

    You then are questioning why science does not have theory WHY a whole bubbling bunch of chemical reactions, with some electrical activity can understand that it is a whole bubbling bunch of chemical reactions, with some electrical activity

    In essence think

    And while science can answer WHY reality acts asit does (physics)

    it draws a blank at thoughts because

    THOUGHTS DO NOT EXIST

    Yes you can measure the electrical activity of the brain and record it BUT BUT BUT you cannot extract the thought

    Not from the activity, or from translating the readings

    Are you ready to jump in yet and offer up god is some how involved as the explanation?

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  22. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    So who is doing that?
    The experimental investigation of the mechanisms of order creation by living beings comes close to being a definition of biological science.
    And since that's not what biologists and information analysts and so forth and so forth are doing, we have no problem.
    The creationists do that. Who else does that? What does "as well" mean?
     
  23. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 69 years old Valued Senior Member

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    Not sure if all his ducks are quite lined up yet

    I am thinking some form god / magic is in there

    So far all we have seen is the table being set, food (substance) yet to arrive

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