Is it possible to measure the Quantum Time?

Discussion in 'Pseudoscience Archive' started by Asexperia, Dec 3, 2012.

  1. Read-Only Valued Senior Member

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    Sure, I'll leave you alone. Just keep in mind that as rough as you *think* I've been on you, it was nothing compared to what you may still get from others.
     
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  3. quantum_wave Contemplating the "as yet" unknown Valued Senior Member

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    Hello, I'm one of the wackos according to one or several of the moderators, I bet. No accounting for how people evaluate others. Name calling though is the best way to get in trouble in a forum, expect when the moderators agree or do it, lol, no offense.

    I find this thread rather sad, but that aside, I don't see any attempt to define "quantum time". Maybe you would accommodate me and give me a definition and I will be glad to give you my view on if it is measurable.
     
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  5. Asexperia Valued Senior Member

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    In the quantum becoming (succession of events) we can not set a before and an after, so that the measurement of time is impossible. In the atom governs the becoming-random Duality.

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  7. quantum_wave Contemplating the "as yet" unknown Valued Senior Member

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    Pretty picture, the dice, not the atom governing a becoming random duality.

    So then, I guess that was the point of your thread; you wanted to pass on that bit of philosophy? Or do you want to chat about it?

    If we pick a quantum event like the emission of a photon which is a wave-particle, then am I correct to interpret your statement to acknowledge or at least hypothesize that the event of emission is a point in time, and not a duration? That would make it an example of one particular quantum time that is unmeasurable because the start and stop of the event had no measurable duration. So the answer to your question in that case would be no, you can't measure a quantum time that is instantaneous with no discernible start and stop.

    But there is more to the story of photon emission. Photons are said theoretically to be like little buckets and the energy of the photon waits in the bucket until the bucket is full before it is emitted. In that case, there is a duration while the bucket fills, and so there is a theoretical quantum time involved with the quantum event of filling the photon's energy bucket. That might be a case where there is a quantum time = to the quantum period of filling the bucket. Agree?
     
  8. Asexperia Valued Senior Member

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    Thanks for helping to understand something more about Quantum Mechanics.

    So it is.

    I didn't know that, but it must be a very short time.
    If the electron jump is instantaneous, why the filling of the "buckets" is not?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 5, 2012
  9. quantum_wave Contemplating the "as yet" unknown Valued Senior Member

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    Any quantum event dealing with oscillating model of the atom boils down to mathematical theory so when I talk about the length of time to fill a bucket it is theory, but certainly it is true to the best of my knowledge, and a very short time. We can't directly observe any individual quantum events or their discrete changes in the state of energy involved, and we can't observe atoms and electrons at work to the degree that an observation of a quantum event can be made. But ... we can detect changes in molecules as a result of quantum events, like the molecule of silver oxide changing when it is struck by light. We cannot see a photon, we cannot see the atoms bound in the molecule in the photographic paper as the chemical change occurs, but we can observe the effect that the quantum event of photon energy has on a macro level as the picture develops.

    But to be honest, you cannot even get a quantum physicist or mathematician to agree that a photon particle travels through space; it is a defined wave-particle and its state is indeterminate and the only way it shows itself is indirectly after it has been interrupted by an observable event. That is why a layman cannot talk about quantum mechanics without experiencing the rath of some jerk who hates for us ask questions that can't be answered and the typical approach by a few at SciForums to questions asked by layman is to make it out to be a stupid question and to develop the question into a chance to troll and flame.
     
  10. Asexperia Valued Senior Member

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    That is, Quantum Theory also has its strengths and weaknesses, and some physicists and mathematicians don't want to admit that, things aren't very clear yet. I think that the unification of all forces in only one equation It will be in a dream.

    Something similar happens with time, we don't perceive it directly, but we noticed its effects.
     
  11. quantum_wave Contemplating the "as yet" unknown Valued Senior Member

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    I think that our perception of time makes it seem to pass faster or slower depending on how occupied our minds are, lol. An hour can seem to pass before you know it, and then two minutes at a traffic light can seem like forever, so time in that sense is relative to our mental engagement. The watched pot never boils scenario. But time as a precise interval between two events can be measured by clocks, that is until relativistic motion becomes involve. Then even synchronizing clocks become a pain. I wonder if there is an accepted way to synchronize clocks at two remote locations so that motion experiments can be conducted with the same start time?
     
  12. quantum_wave Contemplating the "as yet" unknown Valued Senior Member

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    Take Alice and Bob, referred to as A and B in an old clock synchronization protocol; "if A and B are able to build perfect clocks and transport them perfectly they have effectively solved time synchronization completely and with only classical methods", but that was from ten years ago. Anything new in regard to building and transporting synchornized clocks slowly with no "noise"?
     
  13. origin Heading towards oblivion Valued Senior Member

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    What in the name of God are you talking about?
     
  14. Asexperia Valued Senior Member

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    You have described the psychological time which is affected by our emotions and interest in what we are doing.

    Conditions for two clocks are synchronized are: high accuracy, that they are at the same height above sea level and they are in state of relative rest.

    Clocks measure time based on their own internal rhythm (becoming), which as we know can be affected by both the gravity and high speed.
     
  15. Asexperia Valued Senior Member

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    STRENGTHS OF QUANTUM MECHANICS

    1 - Matter is composed for quanta and space.
    2 - Different theoretical models of atom.
    3 - Practical use of the strong and weak nuclear forces.
    4 - Verification of the electron quantum jump.
    5 - The discovery of the Higgs boson.

    WEAKNESSES

    1 - Explain all reality, including macrocosm, with quantum principles.
    2 - Failure to observe directly particles.
    3 - The rejection of that in the universe there are two realities that are governed by their own laws: microcosm and macrocosm.
    4 - The existence of parallel universes.
    5 - Teletransportation.

    These lists are subject to change.
     
  16. quantum_wave Contemplating the "as yet" unknown Valued Senior Member

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    You are right about gravity and acceleration, but you are going to have to be more clear if I am going to understand becoming. Are you saying that the particular relative motion between clocks, which we know will naturally cause them to measure the passing of time at a different rate, has to do with "becoming"?

    Could you mean that time actually passing at a different rate for each clock is the realization of becoming, or could you mean time does actually pass at the same rate for both clocks but they measure it differently because of the difference in gravity or acceleration, i.e. an individual becoming?
     
  17. Asexperia Valued Senior Member

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    In my opinion, the becoming (devenir in French and Spanish) is the succession of changes or events inherent to matter. We measure it or not, perceive it or not there is always becoming. Matter doesn't exist in absolute rest. Then clocks measure time (flowing extension of phenomena) based on an uniform and regular becoming. Units of measurement should be standard or constant.
     
  18. quantum_wave Contemplating the "as yet" unknown Valued Senior Member

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    That doesn't look like an unreasonable summation. I just wrote the following for another thread where I talk about a hypothetical medium that fills space, but I doubt anyone follows my ravings so see if you think this is a reasonable summation too:

    When we refer to the raw redshift data, or the consistent ~2.7K temperature of the cosmic microwave background, both are recognized as well understood and quantified electromagnetic phenomena; wave energy traversing the relative vacuum of the open space that separates the stars and galaxies. Whether seen in the redshifted light from stars and galaxies, or the thermalized light whose wavelength has stretched out during thirteen billion years of traversing an ever expanding universe, they represent the continuous arrival of photons that were emitted by the earliest atoms, stars and galaxies in our expanding big bang connected arena of space; our observable universe. Their journeys are characterized as self-propagating electromagnetic wave energy originating from the electrons of atoms and molecules, and their propagation through space is dependent on their individual transverse electric and magnet fields propelling them through space at the invariant speed of light without the need or presence of any medium.

    Individual photons can't tell us their wavelength or energy, but their discrete packets of energy are quantized and we are able to determine their wavelengths and frequencies from a beam of starlight because we know their discrete energies are separated by multiples of Planck's constant. Knowing that, light spread physically into a spectrum is understood to reveal the wavelength and frequency of the photons that make it up. Though the light from that distant past seems to be a seamless, continuous flow to us from all directions, it isn't technically seamless, and in fact it is mechanically discrete packets of energy that are mathematically characterized as continuous waves with crests and troughs that correspond to the frequencies and wavelengths that we are able to indirectly observe. I say indirectly because we are not detecting and quantifying individual packets of energy moving through space, even thought that is theoretically what is arriving. A beam of starlight consists of trillions and trillions of photons described as wave-particles covering a wide range of energies, and given our tools and theories, we can quantify an incoherent light beam in to wavelengths and energies, and can detect both the wave nature and particle nature of light through experiments like the two slits, and the photoelectric effect.

    Photon energy, and the associated atomic scale particles occupy the quantum realm of science, quantum mechanics, meaning that all of the energies involved change in discrete amounts, or quanta. However, science also deals with quantum mechanical nature of the atomic and sub-atomic realm in a mathematical context as if light was a continuous wave scoring out a mathematically two dimensional wavy path through space. That mathematical model is based on the wave-particle duality of quantum particles, the uncertainty principle, and the wavefunction which reduces to probabilities the location and momentum of the individual photons and particles. The math deals with complex numbers and linear functions, and that gives rise to the concept of a harmonic oscillation, a resonance so to speak, produced by atoms and molecules.

    As a result, the quantum realm is a dynamic and chaotic non-classical realm where the ground state is never at rest in the classical sense of zero kinetic energy and a particle is not something that can be located and followed individually, only in aggregate mass and/or in mathematical theory.
     
  19. Asexperia Valued Senior Member

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    I am studying your message and researching on the subject to give my opinion
     
  20. eram Sciengineer Valued Senior Member

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    What‽ AC is frequently used in electronic communication. And we can control it. What planet do you come from?

    /thread
     
  21. Asexperia Valued Senior Member

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    I meant to appliances such as radios, televisions, computers, etc. The AC can not be amplified by an amplifier circuit.
     
  22. kwhilborn Banned Banned

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    I will answer your question, although it was not clear what you were talking about until you posted this...

    Not Yet.

    It is not possible to measure anything in wave quantum state because of the wave-particle duality of matter that exists. This means that quantum particles cannot be known or measured in any way prior to becoming particle.

    These particles seemingly then pop into existence in a known area. I am unsure of why you cannot measure the time between two formed particles as suggested, but it seems clear Oppenheim viewed it as impossible. My understanding is that measuring at 2 different times interferes with each other and you cannot get location and momentum from 1 measurement, and as known in the entire collapsing nature of wave-particle duality measurements premature may alter whether the particle even decides to arrive. I should not say "decides", but use another word that implies the same thing without consciousness to satisfy many here on sciforums.

    I will point you to the Double-slit experiment as being key to understanding what we are discussing. Since this thread is already in the woo section I have no hesitation linking the Fred Alan Wolf cartoon version of the experiment as it does address some of the mysteries involved although it does imply consciousness causing collapse which is not a popular view.

    [video=youtube;DfPeprQ7oGc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfPeprQ7oGc[/video]

    There is some research ongoing that reverses the process and turns matter into waves which might allow such measurements in the future.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=fnqAwtorUTE

    This is my limited understanding at present.
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2012
  23. Read-Only Valued Senior Member

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    It most certainly can and IS. A prime example for people like yourself would be this: The sound coming from a radio is an AC current. And how would you suppose we can increase the volume of that sound without amplifying it? In fact, there are many stages of AC amplification in such communication devices beginning with the initial detection stage that receives the signal from the antenna.

    Care to try again?
     

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