Is it possible for something to come from nothing?

Discussion in 'Astronomy, Exobiology, & Cosmology' started by pluto2, Feb 19, 2012.

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  1. pluto2 Registered Senior Member

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    Imagine that you are at point at the cosmos where there are no stars, galaxies or any light sources at all. Because there are no light sources that you can see, all you can see around you is the color black or total darkness.

    So do you think it is possible for something to originate out of this infinite blackness of space?
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2012
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  3. river

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    yes

    because space is a consequence of energy and matter

    inotherwords energy and matter come first , energy and matter , produce space
     
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  5. arauca Banned Banned

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    So can you say hypothetically if energy is 100% matter is zero ,or if matter is 100% energy is zero ?
     
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  7. river

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    yes
     
  8. Aqueous Id flat Earth skeptic Valued Senior Member

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    This may not be proper assumption, insofar as spacetime may be created. That is, the default condition could be the absence of space and time. Obviously, creation is still problematic from either initial condition.
     
  9. river

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    space-time is irrelevant here
     
  10. Crunchy Cat F-in' *meow* baby!!! Valued Senior Member

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    At any given cross section of empty space you have length, width, height, time, fields, and virtual particles.

    To answer your thread title, which is quite different, no instance of *nothing* (i.e. an absence of everything / anything) has been shown to actually exist. With that said, it's probably impossible for something to come from nothing mainly because it's probably impossible for nothing to exist.
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2012
  11. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    There are lots of stars in the universe. Basically, you can't go anywhere that is empty that you won't also see light from distant stars. You could hide in a thick dust cloud and not see light, but then you wouldn't be in a region devoid of matter, which is what you seem to be envisaging.

    Perhaps your real question is: could the universe (big bang) have come from "nothing"? The problem with your question in that case is that you seem to be imagining a pre-existing spacetime in which the big bang suddenly happened. But the big bang isn't like that; space and time both began at the big bang.
     
  12. cosmictraveler Be kind to yourself always. Valued Senior Member

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    Even nothing is actually something. As you look to the smaller and smaller parts of space you'll observe atoms, quarks and on and on so that there's always something in nothing.
     
  13. cosmictotem Registered Senior Member

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    It's all nothing!
     
  14. Aqueous Id flat Earth skeptic Valued Senior Member

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    Huh?

     
  15. Aqueous Id flat Earth skeptic Valued Senior Member

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    Thank you. That was where I was headed.

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  16. Aqueous Id flat Earth skeptic Valued Senior Member

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    Right. There will be all the particles that are just hanging around since the Big Bang, plus all the strays ejected from stellar jets, galaxies, etc. There may be only a few per cubic meter, but most on average you'd expect to find something within an arm's reach. (Assuming you had a cosmic metal detector to find them for you!)
     
  17. Aqueous Id flat Earth skeptic Valued Senior Member

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    This is a curious proposition: can energy exist without spacetime? At first glance, I notice that energy can be expressed as newton-meters or watt-seconds. Even Planck's constant times wavelength gives the same final units, and it's inconceivable that a wave could exist without spacetime.
     
  18. wlminex Banned Banned

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  19. Crunchy Cat F-in' *meow* baby!!! Valued Senior Member

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  20. Aqueous Id flat Earth skeptic Valued Senior Member

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    So what are the initial conditions for creatio ex nihilo?

    That would be the thrust of the OP. I prefer the way you said "at [that] point at the cosmos where there are no stars, galaxies or any light sources at all". It seems that spacetime would have to collapse to a point (looking backward, into the Big Bang). So if you were "inside that point", i.e., devoid of space time, you would not be able to see light, because there is no wave that fits in zero space, and no propagation that executes in zero seconds.

    Something odd about this idea, though, is that since you are outside of time, you would be "present with" every moment in the Universe. That is, you would be dimensionless and eternal.

    However, this is perhaps a plausible explanation for creation out of nothing. The reason is, at Zero, causality itself collapses. Therefore, the Big Bang had no cause. Therefore creation out of nothing is not incompatible with the presumption that a Big Bang occurred "out of no cause".

    What this means, if I am correct in my treatment of it, is that creatio ex nihilo is probably more plausible than Aristotle and his school could ever imagine.

    It's also interesting to note that this idea took root in Christianity just about as the Jewish canon would be closed:

    and indeed ideas like this have risen up against science precisely because science has theories for the origin of the universe that conflict with the teaching cited.

    However, suppose we were to conclude (if I am correct) that it always was this way, and always will be: that, at the episode of the first instance of time, there is a nexus to an "instance of no time", which is also spaceless, and that condition persists over the entire extent of the spacetime continuum.

    This might best be characterized by saying "the Big Bang arose out of nothing, out no cause, and from an instant that is eternally producing the Big Bang, out of a timeless, dimensionless point ."

    That may sound a little like hocus-pocus, but it seems to cover the problem of "what came before" when there can be no "before" until the clock has begun to tick!

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  21. Xotica Everyday I’m Shufflin Registered Senior Member

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    The scenario above would be possible if the universe was heterogeneous. The Cosmological Principle however, describes the universe as homogeneous and isotropic. There is no such privileged position in the cosmos as you imagine above.

    Furthermore, paired virtual particles and anti-particles pop into existence and then annihilate all the time. One can witness this phenomena (indirectly) via the Casimir Effect.
     
  22. HectorDecimal Registered Senior Member

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    You should look at all the thermodynamics and other stuff on my "white" board. (Mine's white Lexan BTW....

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    ) You'll find I've been working on demonstrating that is how the universe got here in the first place.

    A resounding "YES!"
     
  23. AlexG Like nailing Jello to a tree Valued Senior Member

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    Religious crankiness.
     
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