Is it futile trying to convince racists to not be racists?

I'm debating this guy (IRL, so I can't really quote him

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) and he's a racist. Not the neo-nazi white supremacist militant type, but the subtler "soft" kind.

His assertion is that whites (and by that he means Europeans, and I tried to explain that there are non-European whites) are the "more intelligent" race and his "evidence" is comparing Europe to Africa and comparing their wealth and technological achievements.

I've been over it again and again. I've discussed colonialism and poverty, and he shrugs it off and gives me education statistics and test scores and I try to explain to him the effect of poverty.

Am I wasting my time? He seriously thinks race, whatever that is, has something to do with Europe's success and Africa's not-so-success.

 

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There is also the factor that the climate in temperate zones suits industry more.
Another factor is that the way religion evolved in Europe fostered industriousness.
The way the Roman Empire affected Europe also matters.
It boils down to a chain of circumstances.

 

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Degrees of Subtlety, or Some Such

Some sort of visceral transformation is required for a hardcore racist, such as a neo-Nazi, to convert his view to something more civilized. In that sense, yes, it's futile. Were I religious, I would say it is something that only God can change.

Milder racism, such as we see in many of our friends and neighbors who would be horrified to find their outlook considered racist, is something that can be addressed between individuals, and within communities.

The problem arises when that address is too belligerent.

I recall an occasion a few years back when a friend was mortified by the proposition that he could be affected by background racism—the ideas and stereotypes we continue to acknowledge, sub- or un-consciously, despite our better intentions. We had quite a row over that one.

Recently, some accused him of racism in a matter pertaining to a specific group of ethnicities, and I simply didn't agree with the complaint. Could he have phrased his question better? Most likely. But having known him for that much longer, now, I have an even deeper comprehension of his context than I did when we tangled about background racism.

Even in terms of that proposition of background racism, his outlook today is clearly different than it was. And it wasn't people hammering him about being racist that did it. Rather, it is the fact that he's an intelligent fellow who has picked up, consciously or otherwise, more pieces of the grand puzzle than he had a few years ago. These elements affected his outlook. I've seen the change, witnessed some of the points on the curve. Could he have phrased his question better? Most likely, but he wasn't actually trying to put anyone down for their ethnicity.

Pressing the proposition that he was or is racist only stalls his human growth; he is not at all unusual in that regard.

I had a moment with the Samurai Jack television series recently. Watching it again after some years had passed, I was nearly rolling on the floor with the whole, "You can't do that!" notion.

[video=youtube;hGt6cybFkF4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGt6cybFkF4[/video]​

But by the time you get to Jack's encounter with the Scotsman—

[video=youtube;L-LyFMCIpok]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-LyFMCIpok[/video]​

—you've witnessed Tartakovsky and company taking it out on enough people that you realize it's not about being racist; rather, it's about exploiting the funny side of stereotypes. Like Eddie Murphy's "dick in the sink" bit. It's hilarious. And plenty of people have asked over the years, "Why can black people say this stuff when white people can't?" And while the answer is generally obvious, we're also in a cultural transitional period in which more and more groups are becoming equal by proxy of being fair game. If Samurai Jack simply ripped on one ethnic group throughout, that would be something. But immediately after the encounter between Jack and the Scotsman, they are both pursued by a stereotype of the incoherent, Southern, redneck sheriff. Everyone is fair game.

Bringing that point back to the question, when you do encounter more subtle racism, it is something one can address.

The hardcore types, though? Neo-Nazis? God only knows what it takes to help them see straight.

 

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Clearly genetics has much to do with intelligence, technological development, organization, co-operation, etc.

If it were not so...homo sapiens would not live much differently than homo erectus.

 

Clearly... ? I wonder how one would go about tracing the clever, successful genotypes to foster, and H erectus ones to weed out.

You can't convince anyone to stop being racist, or to drop any long-held conviction. We all have beliefs and prejudices, because what we think and know is influenced by so much experience, education, social pressure... and a million subliminal messages and impressions we have little or no awareness of receiving. We change our attitude through new experience, education, social pressure and subliminal messages. No one thing will affect a change; many little things might. A debate over the internet can be as much of a factor as a book, a movie or a chance encounter on the street. So don't give up; keep plugging away - but don't expect to see the result of your effort.

 

This will eventually happen with the introduction of 'designer' reproduction...and I suspect it will have much to do with optimizing the coding that determines 'brain volume to body weight' ratio.

 

In a good world the strong should help the weak. Educating those who are lacking it is a step in the right direction to helping those less fortunate than those who are more fortunate to receive a good education. I once encountered a very bigoted person who did not know where I stand about belittling others so that person started showing me their "true colors" and was joking about someones medical condition, which they knew little about.

After about one minute I said to him, "that's my uncle", and that put a halt to his bigotry for the time being. Once someone realizes that they are offending you that is when you can show them they are doing something wrong , in a very subtle and polite way, even though you might have to tell a white lie.

 

Based on my experience trying to "fix" racist family members, usually the best you can hope for is to get them to stop acting openly racist. Or at least, get them to stop acting openly racist around *you*.

 

So what is wrong to be racist or bigot ? It is my choice, Being a racist is that one discriminate certain group. Groups that you do not like to associate I am sure every one of you discriminate some group.

 

You just ramble a lot of unnecessary history which you repeat every time about Mexico and tho Olmec , Next time add to your story the Inca from south America

 

Someone's channeling Jared Diamond!!!

[Personally, I liked the history lesson.]

When questions of race come up, I always retort with the, "So, you really hate a skin cell, don't you?"

~String

 

Is not the skin, but the particular behavior of a group of people who are of that color skin, (So you can be a white nigger )

 

I think that just not understanding someone because they are a different color, religion or ethnic makeup, you cannot ever get to know anyone for who they are due to your own hate build up against them as a group. There are people who I don't care to be around, not because of what they are but because who they themselves are. Everyone in any group are different, there are asholes in every group but there are some good people as well. To condem all people would segregate me from those who I would enjoy the pleasure of getting to know.

 

Which particular behaviours are restricted to race? If you mean culture, i understand that there are practices you dislike - abhor, even - but even cultural mores are not binding or uniform; there is a wide range of adherence, even within a close community, never mind across a continent. So, why not say: I don't associate with anyone who beats his wife, or mutilates his infant son, or eats pork, or mistreats dolphins, or whatever the practice is that you object to?
BTW There no niggers of any colour, anywhere.

 

The word nigger in my usage of in many blacks people usage is referred to a misbehaved individual with bad manners , within the community . Is the same as the word derives from a mispronunciation " negro"

 

It brings to mind the commonality of racism and xenophobia. At the moment I'm thinking of the era of serious carnage that went on between the city-states of ancient Greece, as if an Athenian was as reviled by a Spartan (or vice versa) as, say, the blacks during the American "Jim Crow" era.

There are plenty of hostilities between people of the same color and even common ancestry to remind us that people hate people for all kinds of stupid and petty reasons, but the consequences often go as far as the worst of human rights violations ever known to happen. I think it was Elie Wiesel who said (of the Holocaust) that the Germans had pushed the limits of human cruelty so far than ever conceivable that the lexicon did not contain the words to describe it; that "they forced us to invent words" like the Holocaust to name the newly created crimes. (I'm sure I mangled his quote.)

Racists are sick puppies. (Here I'm just addressing the topic in general.) It takes a mean person to intentionally harm another person. But to do so for stupid and petty reasons and with a degree of hatred that can foment violence and the serious infringement of a person's rights is psychopathic.

This thread may be kind of off in the weeds anyway, but anyone who would seriously ask about how to cure a person of racism is asking the wrong question. It needs to begin with the observation that it's a serious behavioral and thinking disorder which may not be treatable, and is more often merely punishable. Fortunately there are an abundance of laws to refer to that impose penalties for violating other folks' civil rights.

It's kind of an anachronism anyway. More relevant might be to ask why people hate immigrants, or people who eat different kinds of food, or dress or look different, or speak unintelligibly in foreign tongues or with certain kinds of accents. I find this kind of thinking and behavior appalling. It comes to mind every time the immigration issue comes up in the American right wing political diatribes.

Recently Republican governor Jan Brewer of Arizona, in opposition to President Obama's executive order granting amnesty to immigrant children who were advancing their education (the "Dream Act")--the order circumvented Congress where Republican hate-mongering had it bogged down--Gov Brewer came up with her own order to deny state driver's licenses to young people who may apply for amnesty under the Dream Act.

Gov Brewer is a psychopath. Any person who would wield power to harm another person on account of mean and stupid urges arising out of something as petty as xenophobia ought to be committed to the state prison until a cure, if any, is reached. She is dangerous and should not be allowed in public, much, much less than to wield power over her victims. She compounds her crime by taking political gain from it, pandering to the xenophobes in her electorate.

At this point I would rhetorically ask the thread starter to go work magic on Gov Brewer. It can't be done. I would however, favor a period of incarceration--in a bull pen full of bull dyke Latino women--while undergoing intensive therapy. Shock therapy, if necessary, while on a diet of 100% Mexican food, with Mexican conjunto music blaring 24/7, and only Spanish spoken and written within her place of confinement.

That might serve as a cure.