Is hot sauce and cold showers discipline or abuse?

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by Cifo, Jan 31, 2011.

  1. madanthonywayne Morning in America Registered Senior Member

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    Oh, give me a break. I can just see the police rushing to the scene and arresting someone for slipping some hot sauce onto your sandwich or squirting you with a supersoaker filled with cold water.

    I think you are all blowing this out of proportion. Cold showers and hot sauce, while I've never used them as discipline, are essentially harmless but uncomfortable.

    I would say that using both the hot sauce and the cold shower seemed a bit excessive, and perhaps she left the kid in the shower longer than she needed to; but to call this child abuse when we have people literally dipping their children in boiling water and boiling them to death, is quite a stretch.

    A lack of discipline is far worse than this level of "abuse". Every time some parent is charged with child abuse for this kind of piddly shit, it just prompts more and more parents to not dicipline their children at all. Then the "discipline" is left up to law enforcement when the undisciplined kids grow up to become undisciplined adults.
     
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  3. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    madanthonywayne:

    Both of those are assaults. If you did that to me against my will, I could sue you for assault. You may not believe it, but it is true.

    I suppose you approve of prisoners being sprayed with cold-water fire hoses too. Do you? It does no permanent harm. Neither does waterboarding, for that matter. Hot sauce is surely harmless. So is a mild whipping, I guess. As for leaving a person in a dark room with no light, that couldn't possibly harm them at all in any conceivable way.

    Gee, when you think about it, all talk of torture is just silly. Torture doesn't really exist, as long as it leaves no visible scars.

    I feel very thankful that I am not your child if this is how you treat them.

    Yet strangely, all the evidence shows that it tends to be the ones who were "disciplined" as you recommend (i.e. physically and/or psychologically abused) who are far more likely to become criminals. Go figure.
     
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  5. madanthonywayne Morning in America Registered Senior Member

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    You could sue for someone farting in your general direction. That doesn't mean you'd win.
    It depends on what the prisoners did. They shouldn't be subjected to such treatment for no reason, but if they were rioting or fighting spraying them with cold water would be a quite gentle way of breaking up the fight/quelling the riot.
    The punishment should fit the crime.
    No reason to make this personal, but my children are very rarely disciplined at all because they obey the rules. A result, I would assume, of early discipline and good genes (neither I nor my wife were trouble makers). Also, they're all past the age where corporal punishment is appropriate. So you can rest easy.
    First of all, I'm not talking about abuse. You're the one who seems to be equating any corporal punishment with abuse. Are you, in fact, opposed to all corporal punishment? Or just cold showers and hot sauce?
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2011
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  7. Oniw17 ascetic, sage, diogenes, bum? Valued Senior Member

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    That's a little extreme. Everyone I know in the Army had to take cold showers almost everyday in basic training.
    If you really think it's a stretch, you don't need the more extreme example to call it a stretch.
    What type of discipline would you not consider physical or psychological abuse?
     
  8. madanthonywayne Morning in America Registered Senior Member

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    And I had to take one everyday at camp. Was that child abuse? Also, what about the classic "wash your mouth out with soap"? Is that abuse now too?
     
  9. Bells Staff Member

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    24,133
    So you know a lot of abused children, do you? I do. And this is abuse. In Australia, this is considered child abuse and at least one woman has already been sent to jail for making her child drink tabasco for punishment.

    How unfortunate for this child that he does not have the opportunity or ability to leave and seek a place of safety from his own mother when she rages because he got into some trouble at school.

    Since tabasco sauce is merely uncomfortable, I'd suggest you tell your partner to suck on a bottle and hold onto the sauce in their mouth for 5 minutes while you scream abuse at them, before you strip them naked and shove them into a cold shower and hit them while they are in the shower (yes, you could hear her actually hit him while he was in the shower and you saw the motion of her leaning forward as she did it). Then tell your partner that it is not abuse but mere discipline for not having your dinner cooked on time. See how well you go.
     
  10. visceral_instinct Monkey see, monkey denigrate Valued Senior Member

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    Yes it's abuse. That woman needs a bottle of that sauce pumped up her anus.
     
  11. Bells Staff Member

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    Oh please.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!



    To debunk this little fantasy, this woman is married to a police officer and she has 6 children apparently. The person filming her doing this to her son is her 10 year old daughter. She apparently adopted that little boy and his twin brother when they were 5.

    The child didn't burn down a house or do something that bad. He got into some trouble at school that resulted in a note being sent home. Does not warrant this kind of treatment. Did you see her screaming and screeching?

    The most important thing when disciplining a child is self control. This woman had none. And there in lies the danger.

    I mean she had a bottle of tabasco in the bathroom. What the hell? It indicates that this is not an uncommon thing in that household. It also means that there are 6 children exposed to this. Other videos I have watched where this woman's children have filmed her shows her constantly yelling and screaming abuse at the children for every little thing they do.

    Even worse, she does not regret losing control, nor does she regret the punishment. She regrets sending in the tape.

    Beagley's lawyer, William Ingaldson, said she regrets sending the tape (which was made by her 10-year-old daughter)


    http://moms.today.com/_news/2011/01/29/5942612-is-hot-saucing-discipline-or-abuse

    You watch that video.. Look at that child's posture during the whole time she is kneeling in front of him and screaming and yelling into his face. This child is shaking in fear and terror. Then she physically drags him into the bathroom and pours the bottle of tabasco into his mouth. Orders him to not swallow or spit it out. After which she bends over into his face and continues screaming and yelling at him and asking him questions, which he cannot answer because he has to hold it into his mouth. Then she strips him down and shoves him into a cold shower and at approximately 2:22 she leans into the shower and you can hear her actually hit the child and his scream of pain as she continues to scream in rage at this child. And why? Because he didn't listen to his teacher. He is 7 years of age.

    She carried on about how he needs to understand the consequence of his actions and make the choices she wants him to make. He is 7 years old. She didn't teach him to understand anything aside from how to inflict pain and utter terror and fear. That isn't going to alter his behaviour for the better.

    If there is one thing I think any parent can take looking at that video it is this. We are parents. We are supposed to protect and love our children and teach them right from wrong. Our children should not be be so terrified of us that they shake and tremble in fear, nor should they scream in pain like that because of something we have done to them. I look at that 7 year old boy and I think to myself that I would kill myself if my children ever had to cower in fear in front of me like that. She's screaming at him about how 'we don't lie in this house'. She's the biggest liar of all.
     
  12. SilentLi89 Registered Senior Member

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    She did not make him drink hot sauce, that could make you sick. He held it in his mouth then spit it out. Holding mouthwash in your mouth is completely different than drinking it.
    And once again, while you may not see it that way I do, but children are not adults.
     
  13. Bells Staff Member

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    Children are not adults eh?

    So it is not acceptable to inflict harm, fear, physical violence and psychological and mental harm and damage on an adult, but it is on a child? You know, since children are not adults and all.

    If it is acceptable to do to a child, it should be acceptable to inflict on another adult in my opinion. So why wouldn't you do this to an adult who misbehaved?
     
  14. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    madanthonywayne:

    Physically forcing somebody to injest something, and manhandling them into a cold shower, is in a rather different category to farting in their general direction.

    We're talking about doing things for punishment here, not crowd control.

    Do you advocate a return to the days of public whippings (especially for crimes like assault)? I suppose you support the death penalty for murder, too. An eye for an eye?

    Why? Because they're big enough to be able to fight back, now? Why is corporal punishment more appropriate the smaller and more defenceless you are?

    I'm opposed to all corporal punishment. Violence begets violence. You may teach people to fear you that way, but you won't teach them to respect you. Nor will you teach them to respect others. You'll teach them that violence is the way to make people do what you want them to do.

    The Army is good at bastardising new recruits. It may help make them better killers.

    Withdrawal of privileges would be one example.

    Maybe. What would happen if you didn't want to take one? What if you refused? Was hot water available? If so, why force a cold shower? Just bastardisation for the hell of it?

    Absolutely. How would you like it if I washed your mouth out with soap?
     
  15. birch Valued Senior Member

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    5,077
    in a science forum, it would be trying to figure out why the universe would produce and allow such violence or violent tendencies. that's what the real question is. whether we recognize it on one level that it shouldn't be that way, it exists. what is strange about this place is that through life itself reveals just how much of the horrible exists here. one would ponder why would the universe be so predatorial and why produce so much pain, fear, grief, and suffering. what is the foundation and building blocks and laws are that would produce such a life system.

    when we look out into space, of course it all looks beautiful and elegant. there are no consequences when it's not a 'lifeform' like us. that is the biggest puzzle of all. what does life and how life is mean about us, the universe and why.
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2011
  16. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

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    Dr phil is surposedly a real shrink right?
    if so doesnt that make him a manditory reporter for child abuse?
    therefor why did this ever go to air rather than going straight to DOCS?
     
  17. SilentLi89 Registered Senior Member

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    There are lots of things adults can do to children, but not to other adults and vice versa. For example you can't physically force an adult to get into your car, they could press charges against you if you did. But I see parents all of the time physically picking their three year old off the ground while the child kicks and screams, they force them into the car and lock them in their car seat. Yet no one calls the police and accuses the parent of kidnapping or holding someone against their will. Why not?

    A child can be forced to have certain medical procedures done whether they want them done or not. I remember a little girl at the doctor's office screaming because she didn't want to have a cast put on her arm. Her parents had one put on anyway. How could they be so cruel? When the doctor told me I had to use crutches and wear a brace, I ignored him and no one could force me to wear that leg brace either.

    Children are not adults and should not be treated as such. How else could you take care of them if you had to treat them like adults? Almost everything a parent has to do to take care of a young child would be annoying at best and illegal at worst if they did it to an adult. The older a child becomes the less care, instruction, and correction they need so certain caretaking behaviors also become inappropriate.
    I don't need my parents to dress me and bathe me or make sure I'm in bed early enough on a weekday anymore, if they were to do those things to me or if I were to do those things for another adult without consent it would be inappropriate and uncalled for.
     
  18. Bells Staff Member

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    24,133
    That isn't what I asked you.

    Why would you not force your adult partner to hold tabasco in their mouth before stripping them and forcing them into a cold shower while you screamed and yelled at them, and then hit them when they were in said shower? Why is that acceptable for a child but not acceptable for you to do to your partner?
     
  19. nietzschefan Thread Killer Valued Senior Member

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    Wait...what? Dr Phil...aired this? Fuck that guy...seriously.

    Yes it's abuse, esp nowadays.
     
  20. birch Valued Senior Member

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    actually the root of this is very deep and disturbing. in general it has to do with power. it's because a child doesn't have as much power so adults make up contrived and fraudulent excuses, often elaborate and manipulative to condone or justify it. but the truth is it's all about power. an adult isn't going to put up with it and can fight back much easier. children are easier to control. that's all it's about.

    what's so heinous and perverted is how society has and still does condone corporal punishment such as spankings and even bullying of children in schools yet adults have protections from harassment and assault that even children are not afforded. children are the ones who are more vulnerable.

    it's totally ASSBACKWARDS. but what i want to know is why is this cosmos so FUCKED UP to begin with?? hmm?
     
  21. TW Scott Minister of Technology Registered Senior Member

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    4,149
    Hot sauce is a food product yes? one that capticalizes of the EXTREME irritation factor of the oils in the peppers used. These oils are irritating at fiorst but can acutally cuase extreme pain after a short while. In fact there are hot peppers out there that can bond permanently to the tastebuds with a simple taste. Tobasco is not one of them, but I am not sure it has been tasted on human taste buds reliably for more than few minutes of casual contact. Such extreme contact could indeed cuase irreversible damage resulting in permanent agonizing pain.

    Now before you speak on this again fill you mouth to the brim with Tobasco sauce and hold it for five minutes. I say fave becuase we won;t have people yelling at you. Then after that jump inot the shower turning only the cold water on and stand under the full stream. Then we might listen to your drivel. Oh and videotape it for youtube so we can verify.
     
  22. Oniw17 ascetic, sage, diogenes, bum? Valued Senior Member

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    Couldn't it be argued that that is psychological abuse? Where is a good point to draw the line between discomfort and abuse? And what do you do if the child takes it upon him/herself to take those privileges anyway?
     
  23. Anti-Flag Pun intended Registered Senior Member

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    Not to play devils advocate here or anything but is nobody here old enough to remember the days before warm showers? It's a tad draconian I grant you but abusive? Not really, it's just uncomfortably unpleasant, which is the entire point of it.
    As for hot sauce, that's not painful either, in fact it's quite delicious. Now if she'd put it up his nose or in his ass I'd be inclined to agree with the outrage of it, but seriously what next? Abuse is putting cabbage in a childs mouth? Because we all know the fuss they kick up about that!

    At least she didn't beat him, and free-range parenting just doesn't work, as evidenced by the numerous people that like to complain kids these days have no respect and don't understand that actions have consequences etc - but I suppose everybody here thinks little Timmy will miraculously sit on the time out stool and listen to you talk because you said so, or maybe we should just let kids do whatever they want (and then of course blame the parents when they do for not disciplining the children enough).

    You should be more concerned about the tirade she hurls at him than a condiment and lack of heating.

    What do the parents here do to discipline their children? Or do the darling angels never misbehave? :shrug:
     

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