One question that I have struggled with (in my quest to be a believer) is does God get mad and if so can he truly be benevolent? I remeber hearing that the bible translators left out several books (of the bible). One such book contained evidence that God was not always inclined to do good. In it he actually had a fight (I'm sure it was self-defense)! It was said, that the name of the left out information was called "the book of Barnibus." (I could be spelling it wrong). I have often wondered how Satan was able to develope. I mean,...whithin the benevolence and omnipotence of Gods beautiful heaven, where did "vanity" and evil thoughts arise? Maybe God got mad one day and some of the Angels tried to "mimick" this behavior....? (I dunno) Does anyone have information regarding this?
First, I agree with Lori 100% when she says that the bible was writing by the Holy Spirit and nobody has the right to make their own analysis Why? Easy people see what they want and undestand to their own convenience. Subjetive interpretations use individual perceptions base in their believes system and his unique experiences. All the previous ALWAYS DISTORCIONATE THE REALITY or the true ideas. Maybe that's why people are so confuse. About if God isn't benevolent, well that depends of his finallity. In the history always habe been exists troubles, wars, conflicts, natural phenomenas,etc. Is that all God's guilt? No, it's just the consequences of our actions. It's so easy to accuse God of being no good or no helpful to us but it's too hard to take responsability over our actions and consequences.
"Jessica", I understand your position on this topic (and it is o.k. to have our own opinions). Do you or anyone you know, have information re: the book of "Barnibus?" I'm not blaming God for anything. I am just curious as to where all the "evil" originated, that's all.
There are no answers Sirius B..sorry, dude. Ok, straight out and to the point.. you all keep talking of God.. this that ect.. tell me this.. what makes your beliefs ABOVE any others???? Can you not see how that looks?????? My way, "God's" way is the only way... no other options (being very closed minded here..aren't you?) all others who disagree are wrong!! You are going to HELL*echoing* hell, hell, hell.. I am not nor claim to be perfect.. yet, it appears that you and God think we should be. control sucks!!!!!! and I want no part of that... you can call it free will, but tell me how can that be... when the hand of god is on your ass all the bloody time saying ..do it my way or ELSE!!!!!!!!!! Tell me.. who in their right mind would want to worship..and dedicate their lives to a God such as this???????? You know..I am sick and tired of christians thinking their belief in God is above all else... It is as if all of you have the right to say..NOOOOOOO our way is right... yet, you want us to drop to our knees and say yes, you is right?? Do we not have a right to our opinions as well..without being handed a one way ticket to hell???????? Why can't any of you stop and think...hmmmmmmmm... this person or that person MAY just have a point? MAYBE I should explore it.... CHRISTIANS ARE CLOSE MINDED BIG TIME!!!!! [This message has been edited by Flash (edited May 28, 1999).]
Flash, I hope it's not me who is irritating you in this "holier than thou" way. I try really hard not to be that way on purpose. I think that the exclusivity and superiority conveyed by many Christians does more to hurt the teachings than anything else. You would have to admit that I'm not as close-minded as most of the people who post on this board are. Especially the scientists, regarding their religion, which is inherently more strict than Christianity could ever hope to be. I was reading another chapter in that book last night about Hopi indian prophecy. Sounds very similar to what you're into. All of their beliefs parallel the teachings in the Bible, like almost concept by concept. They just have used different terminology to explain these beliefs. They believe in one Creator, and good and evil spirits, just like I do. Many religions are very much parallel to Christianity as well. I don't discount other beliefs very often because they are all so similar, and at the very least, initiate the same behaviors in people. I guess that you could say that I think of the Bible as the final word. There is no other religion that documents the Gospel of the Son of God. There have been prophets, yes. There have been teachers, yes. But only one Son of God. What are we really trying to argue here? That many Christians are close-minded? Well, no shit, sherlock. Does that mean the only other alternative is to worship some volcano god? No. I think that you have a very sour taste in your mouth regarding the Bible because the people who presented it to you had their heads up their asses, and probably was involved with the Church to achieve a sense of acceptance, and superiority. Those motivations can only lead to corruption. This is the way I look at it...Christians are people too. And yes, sometimes they are motivated by the wrong reasons, and can be judgemental, and basically take a text that is Divine, and that we should all be learning a great deal from, and turn it into some kind of lifestyle performance appraisal. Those people aren't doing themselves or anyone else and good. You have to recognize that people are all the same, even though everyone will say, no, I'm better because of this or that. Don't deny yourself understanding just because people are human (ugh).
Lori, NO, I am not pointing a finger at you. I will admit to some degree you are pretty open minded. sorry...I didn't mean to make you feel that way... I was pissed because one of my old friends called..and.. well..nevermind, you get the picture. I guess I was venting. Jessica said some of the same things that this person had said.. and I got a little upset.. add that to a few beers and some wine..and wham.. Flash got pissed. I know that people are just people... I am just so sick and tired of it. Have you ever had a good feeling about something before? Well thats how I feel about the wicca/spirit thing... I can not .. I know that no other religion mentions Jesus as the son of god... well..my other phone line is ringing.. get back to ya later..
Flash, I now know,....there are no answers! I must support your comment about (some) Christians coming across as being more "holy" than anyone else. It does no good for anyone to have feelings of "superiority." I mean, what's the point in being superior? What is to be gained? We all breath air and eat food, why can't anyone be happy with that? If we are truly made in the image of God then...the benevolence of God is a "farce."
Flash- I've found what non-religious people call being "tolerant" and "open minded" usually boils down to their having no values worthy of the name...and what they decry as being intolerance by people of faith (and not just Christians) shows they don't have the self-discipline to live by any guiding principles. They live day to day, drifting along...A jellyfish does as much... Are there principled atheists? Of course. But the great mass of people who deny God do so because the existence of one, of absiolutes of right and wrong, would cramp their self-indulgent narcissistic lifestyles....
My dear Odysseus, I don't really see how your insults are contributing to any sort of discussion of this topic. Why are you so angry if I may ask ? ------------------ we are midgets standing on the backs of giants, Plato
Odysseus, I think you just made Flash's point. I know plenty of religious people that "talk the talk, but don't walk the walk". A perfect example is how you just replied to Flash. It was unkind and very judgemental. I know a lot of agnostics and atheist that do not live "self-indulgent narcissistic lifestyles". That was very presumptuous of you. Flash, their are a lot of religious people that fit your description and I pray that I will never be catergorized as such, but you have a mind and a conscience of your own. Investigate christianity like you are investigating wicca, on your own terms. Maybe you will discover something there. Don't close your mind to it just because of the bad experiences. Have a nice day! Bev Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Bev, I stand by what I said, and I do not apologize for it. I'm SICK TO DEATH of hearing people who are the enemies of Christianity, or those like you who seem to have but the shallowest understanding of Christianity, or who have bought into the whole bullshit apostate theology of the "mainstream" churches flay anyone who trys to uphold some values with that old line about "judge not, lest ye be judged." I recommend that such people try reading the WHOLE Bible, especially the part where Jesus tell his disciples when the go into a town and the people refuse to receive the Word, then they are to wipe the dust of that town off their sandals and never return. Jesus asks us to forgive, to be understanding, to hate the sin and not the sinner, but he NEVER asks us not to judge in the way that phrase seems to be interpreted today. To the contrary, he tells us "I bring a sword." Read some C.S. Lewis.."Mere Christianity" and especially "The Screwtape Letters." He does a much better job of defining the kind of people I was talking about than I do. ------------------ May you be in Heaven a half an hour 'fore the Devil knows you're dead
Odysseus: I agree with your point that too many people these days lack a solid set of principles. However, I doubt religion would be the way to restore some principles to those people. On the contrary -- it's all the bullshit of the anscient religions, rituals, and moralistic fairy-tales that is driving people away. What we are seeing, with increased education and exposure to alternative viewpoints, is a rebellion against the doctrine that no longer makes sense. Times are indeed changing, and in the modern world principles must be instilled through reasoned argument -- not through appellation to the Bible or any other 'holy' source. As for your statement to the effect that non-religious people have fewer principles than religious ones -- I think you are wrong. There is narcissism and greed throughout religious communities, and no less sin than in any other sector of society. But what I find revulsive, is when people derive their principles from a Book without any further consideration for the *reasons* these principles are worthy of being upheld. Such behavior smacks of mindless robots being driven by a program. Not only that, but some of the principles are just plain wrong. Excuse me for being judgmental, but I guess given your comments you shouldn't mind... ------------------ I am; therefore I think.
whoaaaaaaa Odysseus!!!!!! Actually, I could care less for an apology WE ALL have a right to our opinions!!!!!! ALL!!!!!!!!!! I must say though...you represent the VERY thing that totally turns my stomach and makes me want to vomit!! I think your holier than thou attitude sucks!!!!!! You know...you just make my decision easier for me. If turning to God makes people get your attitude I want NO PART OF IT!!!!!!! I do not expect a pat on the head for my opinions...So get that clear!!!!!! To go ahead and pick up your bloody ass sword ...LMAO!!!!!! Bev, what can I say... thank you for your kind words... right now...I am too pissed to look and explore christianity... Odysseus just really woke me up ... woke me up to know I am not ready for this shit...
Odysseus, again you have made Flash's point.And I'm sure that Jesus would not wipe the dust off his sandles after "one post". We are all sinners. And you said it, "hate the sin not the sinner". "Do not marvel, my brethern, if the world hates you. We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the breathern. He who does not love his brother abides in death. Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him." 1 John 3:13-15 NKJ I prefer to win people over to the Lord by showing them Christ's love for us. The "hell and damnation" stuff is too overwhelming and a turn off for many. You also presumed incorrectly, I have read the WHOLE Bible, as well as, "Mere Christianity" (along... time ago). I will never claim to understand everything I have read and be able to live my life completely by God's word (it's an ongoing process), but I know that God knows my heart and loves me despite my shortcomings. Have a nice day! Bev Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! [This message has been edited by Bev (edited June 14, 1999).]
Odysseus, I know my above post was one full of rage toward you. For that I apologize. I in know way expect an apology out of you or want one for that matter. I have been trying to work on my anger..and when I read what you wrote..I lost it. Now that I am much calmer..I would like to reply. First, I AM trying to better myself and to seek truth. Now what I may eventually find may be a different version than yours..it does not make me a bad person. What you have read in the above posts from me...was one of anger and rage toward christians like what you had portrayed in your post to me. Nothing turns away someone quicker than brimstone and fire, man.. In alllllll of my life... I have never..never.. truly believed in god... and have just come to the point of possibly exploring the idea... but that was through a friend who did not preached to me...just reading heart to heart things she has shared. She did not come with a sword... don't get me wrong..she has stood her ground firm... but never in my life did I ever...ever think I would come to the point of possibly thinking it through and exploring it. I am not saying that once I do explore it that I will say god save my soul... am not sure that I will even believe in god... but I am no longer shutting the idea out totally.. which is wayyyyyy freaky to me... see...prior I had explored it, but through the eyes of people with a hell damnation attitude..ect... I do not know how this will turn out...but I am willing to give it a shot... the exploring part...nothing more..not as of yet... next time...you might think twice before you slice when it comes to others...
Flash, crossroads...duh...now I get it...*S* It takes a lot of balls for you to do what you're doing, and I'm proud of you. *BG*
God gave man choice. You can choose to do anything you want. Not all things you choose to do are right and not all things you choose to do are good. The choice is yours. If you know what is a bad deed from a good deed you can discern "better not do that - it's bad", how else would you know the difference unless given the rules? God has been "fighting" (evil) since the day "good lookin' Satan" thought he'd challenge the top jobs position!
Flash What you are going through at the moment, is something that made me think a lot about the whole cake here. I would also think that a lot of people are thinking about the same thing, but this would be the first time that i have seen one be so open and honest about it.. You are on a great gig Flash, hope you find YOUR truth. I do agree with you on the part where that guy(cant remember his nick) made that "holier than thou" part, that is also turning my stomach around, and i have encountered many such people, and that had led me to do some research ( like i am doing right now). Here we are all talking about Christianity vs non-belivers. I dont know how many people there are on this BB that believe in other religions, but it would have been a good thing to get some other input as well. I am going to do a daring comment here about the benevolent part, I am Norwegian, so this is going to be easy reading for you people Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! I havent read the bible much, but i have picked up a few lines here and there . Once again i am coming to the part of that "God created man in his own image" Is man benevolent? Look at that in the big picture. Are we more violent now than we were in the old days? I would say no. We only have bigger and badder weapons so that it looks that way. When i am thinking about the prophecies the bible makes, about when Jesus is coming back and all that to judge us or something like that, he then KNOWS that Earth isn't a good place to live, and is going to battle anti-christ and all that * what does this have to do with the thread* The prophecies of the bible must then be "true" and that since it is written in a book that originated who knows how long ago ( me not knowing the bible) we are actually re-living what God or his son allready knows the outcome of. If God allready knew that this was going to happen, why did he create us in the first place? Remember when that time is SUPPOSED to come that he or his son comes back to judge people. there is going to be an awful lot of death on this planet. So is God benevolent? Why did Jesus die for our sins, when he and his father allready knew what the future of mankind would be? as far as i know, there hasnt been much of a change on that part since he died. So if he/they allready knew how things were going to be 2000+ years later, why havent they "fixed" it sooner? Why not allready then? Torturing mankind for 2000+ years.. So is God benevolent? Bev . You have read the bible i read, and i am certain that you have a lot of questions yourself. Do you have any answers for me? Do anyone have an answer? Hope my English was fair enough for you to understand this...:-\ ------------------ Just waiting for my peabrain to boot into English Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
H-Kon I guess I was a bit open about it ... yikes!! LOL oh well... You brought up some very good questions...and I have often thought about some of these things... and like you..have not found any answers as of yet. There are many things in the Bible that I just do not understand.. like, why did it take Jesus to be the ultimate sacrifice? Couldn't there have been another way then to require your (god's) very own son's blood? When I think of that.. I relate it to our own thoughts...well at least mine... how would it look to people if someone said they had done this to their own son to benefit others? Thing is... I do not believe the bible is translated correctly...it couldn't be..and if it was... there are MANY contradictions... which doesn't make any sense. How is one to know the truth if it is hidden? I would love to know the answers to these questions... perhaps "truth" goes back to the spiritual laws... I don't know... but I am searching Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
