Is Gender Orientation biological?

Sexuality isn't something... absolute. And it's partly biological, partly in the mind.

What is the purpose of procreation (or survival)?

 

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scientifically speaking, no comment.
If you want my philosophical view on the meaning of life/existance, then it is "there is none". Sure, let's say there IS higher being(s), and our purpose is to serve him/her/it/them. Well, what's THEIR purpose? If you keep going, you ultimately run out of purposes, or you start a circular argument. So ultimately, life is pointless. For example... a soldier's purpose would be to serve their general or whoever, but if the general has no purpose, then the soldier's purpose is pointless too. get what I mean?

 

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This conversation is too far over my horned head.

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I must admit that both Buddha1 and Alpha Wolf are far too clever for my feeble mind.
I can only hope to draw their attentions with my childish taunts and feminine mockery.

Maybe the Wizard of Oz can give me a pair of goat testicles and I can pretend to be a man.

 

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I've made some additions in the first introductory post, including the following:

P.S.: More about 'Gender Orientation' (I'm restricting my examples to men):

a.) Natural gender or the 'sense' or 'feeling' of being male/masculine or female/feminine happens in degrees. On one extreme is an extremely masculine inner-sex, and on the other extreme feminine inner-sex (transexuals). Most people have both the genders in varying degrees.

b.) It is our Gender identity which is our basic natural identity (not sexual oreintation). It is how we see ourselves, and how others see us. It determines how we relate to others and how others relate to us. E.g., a feminine gendered male may see himself as a basically a female, and relate to others as a female, inspite of a 'male' outer-sex. Others too would relate to him/ her as a different 'sex' than 'male' (again inspite of his/her outer-sex). In several respect one's inner-sex is more important to an individual (and to the society) than one's outer-sex. Although, its the unique combination of the two that determines our real SEX IDENTITY.

c.) Our Gender orientation/ identity refers to our predominant Gender. E.g., a male who predominantly feels a male will be a masculine gendered man. It does not mean that the man will not have any feminine energies at all.

d.) Our natural Gender or masculinity and femininity are not just social constructs (even though there is also a parallel 'Social Gender' that interferes with our 'natural gender'). They are real and are a product of biological factors. They represent our source of special energies. Masculine and Feminine Energies. Combined with our outer-sex the energies take different forms and invest the individual with unique powers. E.g. a predominantly feminine male will have the feminine energies of a female while the physical capabilities of a male.

e.) SOCIAL GENDER: Apart from out natural gender, the society has created its own artificial, social gender --- which has a special significance in the case of men. Because 'Manhood' (Social Masculinity) is used as the basic manipulative tool to control the behaviour, attitudes and mores of men. However, this social gender is purely an artificial construct which may have nothing to do with one's natural gender and may in fact run contrary to the essence of natural gender.

Some examples of social gender: Cigerrette smoking is projected by the society as a 'masculine' thing. However, in reality there is nothing masculine about smoking ciggerate. It's only when masculine men smoke ciggeratte that it seems masculine.

Like social masculinity. social femininity is also equally artificial and sometimes 'false' and is used to control or punish men. E.g., Men may be told they are feminine when they cry do other things artificially desinated as 'feminine'.

 

Are you living in a time warp? The attitudes and pressures you are describing are straight out of the fifties or earlier. What country do you live in? Somewhere in the east, you say. Remarkable.

 

Can you tell me specifically what pressures you're talking about? And how do you back your statement?

 

These are two examples from your previous post, but they made me realise many of your posts were filled with the same description of outmoded attitudes, that are going the way of the Dodo and the dinosaur.

 

.....or are you just trolling like you've been doing lately.

 

I don't troll. I've just given you an answer. You are describing pressures and views that are in a declining minority in the west. So where are these views still in vogue? That is what is puzzling me.

 

Denial, denial.....that's the problem with some adult men.

It would be easier to answer your post if you tell me exactly what pressures are you talking about here.

I am just assuming that you're talking about the pressures to 'prove one is a man', and the pressures to be acknowledged as a 'masculine' man by conforming to the gender and sexual roles artificially set up by the society (social masculinity as against Natural masculinity).

We have already talked about the pressures to exaggerate one's sexual need for women, and suppress one's sexual need for men with evidences including posts from this forum --- and we won't talk about them here.

Social masculinity and its non-heterosexual pressures in itself is a big topic that requires another thread to discuss, so I'll only do it shortly here.

Are you denying that there is a big 'masculine' value attached to 'smoking' --- albeit an artificial value? (inspite of the fact that there is a big and active anti-smoking lobby in the west). Boys are forced into smoking because this becomes one of the ways in which they can prove or assert their 'manhood'. It's an intense competition to prove who is 'more' of a man, and men compete to outdo the other in the straight world. One's status and respect in the peer group depends upon where one stands in this 'race for manhood'. To be a back runner means that you'll have no respect and people will treat you like shit.

You apparently have not heard someone say "don't cry like a woman"? Haven't you seen how being called a 'wimp' or a 'faggot' shakes men on this board? These words have the power to push men to the bottom of this 'race for manhood', and (young) men would often risk their lives to avoid them. The only way to avoid them is when you are seen as powerful, and the only way to get this social power (however vain and artificial) is to fit into the 'social masculinity' roles --- most importantly the sexual ones. Once you get this power and are finally secure about your 'manhood' (by marrying and procreating), you start believing it's real and that you deserve it. You start putting down others --- blinded by this power. And when someone challenges the source, you want to protect it with whatever way you can.

That you're denying the pressure is itself an attempt to protect the infrastructure that supports those pressures and in my view is a very anti-man and thus an 'unmanly' act.

 

In the modern (esp. heterosexual) world natural/ real masculinity has no value. It is the social masculinity that counts.

 

PRESSURES OF SOCIAL MASCULINITY:

Here are external links for ya:

- Crime aqainst nature: Psychologist's play focuses on growing up male in America

- Social pressures on men are ingrained, says study

Boys and men

- UNFPA status of world population 2005

- An interesting personal account of a woman living in the west

 

Smoking is not viewed as a positive masculine attribute in the West anymore. If you had been writing in the 1950s your statements on smoking would have been valid. They are not today. There are further examples scattered throughout your posts, here and on other threads. You are either living in a time warp, or are immersed in a culture that has little connectivity with the West of today. Are they showing the Maltese Falcon at the Odeon this weekend?

 

What about the external links given above?

I agree, that in the west the non-sexual masculinity roles that were prevalent in the traditional societies is being fast done away with. But that is a result of heterosexualisation of the society --- which is forcing men towards femininity --- rather forcing meterosexuality on men (a result of the power passing on to heterosexuals and homosexuals, rather than masculine men). With heterosexualisation men's spaces are being shared by women and they don't care much about the non-sexual pressures of social masculinity. And since they decide who qualifies to be a 'man', men can relax on that count.

BUT, they do care about men being heterosexual, as it is the source of their outer power. And so the pressures of sexuality increases on men a thousand folds. And the fact that the 'giver' of social masculinity (women) is with them all the time, (no non-heterosexual spaces left in the mainstream), men have little breathing spaces left. So they must totally given in.

So in a way, what you are saying is partly right, the pressures of non- sexual roles have greatly decreased, but those about sexuality have tremendously increased. It is the sexual pressures which are the essence (and the cause) of social masculinity.

 

Note that these are all examples from the west. And they all treat masculinity as if it were only a social construct. For them masculinity = the social roles/ pressures of masculinity. They ignore or deny the biological aspect of masculinity which is totally different from (although affected by) the social concepts of masculinity.

 

“The male stereotype makes masculinity not just a fact of biology but something that must be proved and re-proved, a continual quest for an ever-receding Holy Grail”

--- Marc Feigen Fasteau quotes

 

SUMMARY OF THE THREAD SO FAR

Argument in favour of Gender orientation being natural:

1. Gender orientation manifests early on in life. Whether one feels a male or a female, and to what degree is apparent in the early years of life, through the adolescence. We all have the same pressures of social masclinity. But the inherently feminine will be feminine in the face of social biases. Only something that is natural can survive such strong social hostilities.
(Counter arguments: none)

2. Gender orientation has been held 'natural' and has been accomodated in their social gender structures by all the ancient and traditional societies, except the modern west.
(Counter arguments: none)

Argument against Gender orientation being natural:

1. Gender is a result of social conditioning. We act masculine or feminine because of how we are raised.

Counter argument:
1. We all grow up under the same masculinity pressures. There is no evidence to suggest that those who show feminine behaviour have a different environment or parental attitude towards them. On the contrary, when a parent notices that the boy is showing an unusual interest in feminine 'toys' etc, they increase the social-masculinity pressure on the boy tremendously.

2. Because of social masculinity pressures, a lot of the masculine behaviour is a pretense and negative. But it does not mean that there is no natural masculinity or femininity.

 

So far, the view that Gender Orientation is biological is winning.

 

There is no reason at all the disbelieve the experiences of countless men (and women) both masculine and feminine, and to argue that their gender sense or feeling or identity does not have a natural/ biological background.

 

Femininity in males is not a 'disease' or a 'deviation' or an 'abnormality. Nor is it a 'lack of masculinity' or a 'lack of strengths'. It is natural and biological, and has its own important biological function. It is an important 'power' or 'energy' in its own right, though different from the masculine energy.