Is faith a reliable path to knowledge?

Discussion in 'Comparative Religion' started by James R, Jul 23, 2015.

  1. Dicart Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    465
    This would be illumination, not faith.

    Again and more clearly :
    Faith is a concept, like infinity, and this type of concept do not exist in the real world.
    There is an idea of infinity but no actual infinity.
    There is an idea of faith but no actual faith.
    Do anyone ever seen someone whos faith is 100% without knowledge ???
    No... but yes if the knowledge we talk about is illumination, so no faith, religious or not, here.

    Therefore we quantitize actual faith, saying per example that someone has a strong or weak faith.
    What is this other concept that can be lowered (lowering faith is a nonsense) ? This is the actual faith.
    So the possible formula to express this clearly : Actual faith = a * faith + (1-a) * knowledge
    (a is the ratio of the use of faith or knowledge)

    But faith = 1 (it is a constant, not like knowledge)
    So
    Actual faith = a + (1-a) * knowledge

    Therefore 2 extrem cases (intermediate cases exists too because a is between 0 and 1) :
    If a=0 : I dont depend on faith
    => Actual faith = Knowledge

    If a=1 : I only depend on faith (so actual faith = faith)
    => Actual faith = 1

    Simple enought to understand i suppose.

    Other possible formulas :
    Actual faith = a * (1 - knowledge) + knowledge
    Actual faith = a * (Ignorance) + knowledge
     
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  3. Dywyddyr Penguinaciously duckalicious. Valued Senior Member

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    Really?
    Then why the word faith?
    Drivel.
    Anyone/ everyone who believes in a god. NO ONE has actual knowledge of god (any god). Yet may people believe regardless. Many people have faith that he/ she/ it exists.
    This is, in its entirety, utter nonsense.
     
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  5. Dicart Registered Senior Member

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    465
    Yes, i just did the (obvious) demonstration.

    Because you can have more or less faith, but not 100% (in my example a=1 is the limit never atteined)
    100%=1

    Why ? Whats your agument (is your believe based on knowledge or faith this would be wrong) ?

    Other example :
    Pain.
    Pain is a concept.
    Saying i have pain doesent say anything about actual pain.
    You must define the intensity a
    Actual pain = a * pain

    Thats exactly what i said.
    Formula explain it more accuratly, if Knowlege = 100% faith=0%
    100% faith = Illumination so 0% Knowledge

    No, this is rational thinking.
    If yout think something is wrong, say what is wrong and explain why.
     
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  7. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

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    Ummm no. PAIN is a sense(ation)

    A UNPLEASANT sensation

    When I trained as a Registered Nurse I learnt that pain severity was measured in *dols. If memory serves me correctly a 1cm pad was applied to the back of the hand and heated. The person was required to indicate when they felt a change in temperature (1 dol)

    There is a well known pain relief medication which uses the Greek word for pain - pónos - and the measurement - dol

    PANADOL

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    *Edit sold to dols - piss poor proof read

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    Last edited: Mar 22, 2021
  8. Dicart Registered Senior Member

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    465
    Big confusion here.
    No, pain is the word used to represent the concept pain and the concept pain (here in the case of pain, this is not a generality) is relevant to "something" (never really known, you know the platos cave...) correlated with a set of properties and atributes that can be observed (So we can speak about with intersubjectivity)
    So per example and not only, pain has the atribute to be part of the category sensation.

    Yes, this is what i say, and i used this qualia to show that even we can not mesure something precisely, we can talk
    about his intensity.
    So for faith, there are many intensities of faith we can not mesure but we can speak of the intensity.
     
  9. Michael 345 New year. PRESENT is 72 years oldl Valued Senior Member

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    Subjectively

    Sorry about the boo boo *sold was a auto correct I should have caught and corrected back to dols before posting

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  10. Dennis Tate Valued Senior Member

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    1,154

    By around 1990 I began to pray and ask for wisdom with rather extreme chutzpah......
    I even was EXTREMELY RUDE to Messiah Yeshua - Jesus and to the Ancient of Days the Father...
    Thirty one years later and I honestly feel that ALL of my question from back in those days have been answered......
    and ninety five or more percent of the answers really surprised me and were not what I could have guessed back in 1988 or 1989!

    I did have at least some faith....
    and I feel that my prayers for Wisdom... ( partly so that I would not go through life and end up giving really awful advice as I had so
    often seen done by some pastors..... on some occasions..... would be an error that I would make some progress in avoiding)! I also learned to qualify my assertions and be far less dogmatic even when I get into a topic that I have investigated thoroughly.
     
  11. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    None of that answers the questions I asked in my opening post. I think you're posting in the wrong thread, Dennis.

    Have you read this thread?
     
  12. Vociferous Valued Senior Member

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  13. Mr. G reality.sys Valued Senior Member

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    Faith isn't about knowledge. It's about belief in what you don't actually know.

    Ever try to assemble some purchased product without reading the instructions?
     
  14. sideshowbob Sorry, wrong number. Valued Senior Member

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    7,054
    Often it's about trying to circumvent actual knowledge - e.g. creationism is an attempt to put faith before evidence.
    Always.

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    The microwave stand. The tabletop barbecue, The floor lamp. To this day, I've never seen the instructions for any of them.
     
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  15. ThazzarBaal Registered Member

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    118
    Is there ever an absence of evidence? Whether objective or subjective, if not for some evidence, I'd suggest the term faith far removed from the concept itself. Faith, isn't something a person just decides to exercise. At least not without a reason.

    Besides, the definition of the term itself simply suggests having a trust in something, which if applied under contrary circumstances would seem pointless in terms of validity. There are times when a choice to feel secure in a situation isn't there, so a person is then forced to utilize the faith principle, if only to find some sense of security, or hope.

    In this scenario it makes sense, at least your definition of, that faith is sometimes required to find relief, to keep a hope and live through it, that things will get better, or a sense that we'll make it through.

    Difficulty is something many of us find to be a necessitating element requiring faith, if we choose this route as opposed to just submitting defeat.

    Knowledge is no less an aspect of faith than uncertainty, which is why I asked or alluded to the idea that faith is always present, active, and part of life.
     
  16. sideshowbob Sorry, wrong number. Valued Senior Member

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    I would say the opposite; Faith IS something that a person just decides to exercise, not just in the absence of evidence but often in denial of the evidence.
     
  17. ThazzarBaal Registered Member

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    118

    I might agree when hope is fading, but even then faith comes quite natural to us. I guess once strained beyond our limit, a choosing is required to continue. So ... I won't disagree.
     
  18. sideshowbob Sorry, wrong number. Valued Senior Member

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    Something that comes naturally isn't necessarily something good. Racism comes naturally but it needs to be resisted.
     
  19. ThazzarBaal Registered Member

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    Your point is?
     
  20. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    Obverse: You're joking.

    Reverse: But what is yours? If your post at #812↑ seems to have missed the context of the thread, #814↑ only reinforces the perception.

    The "faith" you seem to be referring to is a far more general concept than what this thread discusses; it's not entirely irrelevant, but it's up to you to connect the two—nobody else can do that part for you.

    †​

    Also: "I might agree when hope is fading, but even then faith comes quite natural to us." You managed to get part of that backwards unto itself. You said faith "isn't something someone just decides to exercise"; Bob would say the opposite. Yet the part where you won't disagree, "when hope is fading", is one of the least reliable exercises of will there is. In terms of the thread in general, you reinforce that faith is not a reliable path to knowledge; in the more particular consideration, the circumstance in which you "might agree" that faith is something someone just decides to exercise—i.e., as a conscious act of will—is also an occasion when that decision is most vulnerable to circumstantial coercion.

    That is, you might agree they "just decide" at a time when they actually perceive a reason.

    Do we really need to analyze the implication of arbitrariness about the word "just"? Because the time you would concede they might arbitrarily decide to exercise faith also coincides with circumstances that might actually give them a reason.

    Or, did you mean something else?
     
  21. ThazzarBaal Registered Member

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    118
    Faith is an aspect of everyday life ... Always, but I can agree that people choose to acknowledge living through it ... Or not. Particularly in dire straits we find the concept coming to surface. That's the point, but then I like sturdy chairs.
     
  22. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

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    And while that is a fine subject, it also reads like a change of subject; and it does stand out that you still don't seem to understand, or perhaps acknowledge, the difference between what you're talking about and the thread. If the connection or relationship between these two aspects of faith is part of what you're talking about, again, nobody else can do that part for you.
     
  23. sideshowbob Sorry, wrong number. Valued Senior Member

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    I thought it was fairly clear: Everything that comes naturally isn't necessarily good. Specifically, faith coming naturally doesn't mean faith is good. What do you not understand about that?
     

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