Is Everything Predetermined?

Discussion in 'General Science & Technology' started by Reiku, Sep 23, 2007.

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  1. Reiku Banned Banned

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    ''Where is the evidence ''

    Ok.. let's start again.

    What evidence is it you so desire?
     
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  3. Yorda Registered Senior Member

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    matter could be pin-pointed down as a mental phenomena.

    in reality, there are no physical rules, there is only free will.
     
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  5. Reiku Banned Banned

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    ''matter could be pin-pointed down as a mental phenomena''

    That's very true... In fact, if you cover my threads, you'll find me saying, ''that it may not be so much that mind arises from matter, but perhaps how matter arises from mind.''

    ''in reality, there are no physical rules, there is only free will.''

    Just another opinion, along with mine, and Billy T's (including everyone else).
     
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  7. superluminal . Registered Senior Member

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    In response to the OP (ignoring all of this free will mumbo jumbo) no. Quantum Mechanics coupled with a simple examination of chaotic phenomena should convince anyone that not much in nature is predetermined in its limit.

    As for the rest of it, human free will as most of you seem to be interpreting it (i.e. an ability to take any action , at will, no matter the surrounding circumstances) is clearly non-existent. You all have varying degrees of limited choice. And under certain circumstances, constrained free will. Like the choice to wear the red or blue shirt. If none of you could possibly predict which choice I would make, then I have just exercised constrained free will.
     
  8. Reiku Banned Banned

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    ''In response to the OP (ignoring all of this free will mumbo jumbo) no. Quantum Mechanics coupled with a simple examination of chaotic phenomena should convince anyone that not much in nature is predetermined in its limit.''

    I totally dissagree, as Chaotic systems will a lot of the time, be an effect of a distant prior cause. If by quantum mechanics, you mean, 'the principle of indeterminism,' then i have devised an answer for this. Two in fact.
    Might it be, that since consciousness is a macroscopic phenom, it cannot be applied to understand the fundamental level of things? Also, without the observer (according to the observer effect), uncertainty would not exist.

    Reiku
     
  9. superluminal . Registered Senior Member

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    I totally disagree with everything you just posted.
     
  10. Reiku Banned Banned

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    Why>>?
    Take chaotic systems in the atmosphere. Something always preceeds another thing>> an event cannot instantaneously jump into the suspected variables without some prior cause... (This obviously breaks down at the fundamental level of things...)
    Also, if you are dissagreeing with my uncertainty axiom, then you don't understand the observer effect.
     
  11. superluminal . Registered Senior Member

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    I understand the "observer effect" quite well, thank you. Do you? I suspect not.

    With quantum phenomena at the root of all subsequent macro phenomena, I stand by my position.
     
  12. Reiku Banned Banned

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    ''I understand the "observer effect" quite well, thank you. Do you? I suspect not.''

    If anything, it is my best area. Along with all the other variables that fit in with the observer.

    ''With quantum phenomena at the root of all subsequent macro phenomena, I stand by my position.''

    That is not debated... In fact, it was the main point throughout. What is up for debate however, that perhaps the statistical averages, (that is), particles follow a preordained path. In the De-Broglie-Bohm Interpretation, this is very real without question.
     
  13. peta9 Registered Senior Member

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    It's context too. In some cases we do have free will to an extent when we know of the consequences or effects of our actions.

    The problem isn't free will but using it doesn't exist for making excuses for your actions or not being proactive which then in many cases becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy because one action versus another garners different results and you knew it.

    We all know we have 'will' and choice and exercise it all the time, often because we know the consequences. Whether it's free or not is relative.
     
  14. madanthonywayne Morning in America Staff Member

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    Nonsense. Either you have free will or you don't. Lack of perfect information doesn't mean you aren't free, it simply means you just have to make the best choice you can with the info you have.

    Saying there is no free will is just a philosophical cop out for people who don't want to take responsibility for their lives and their choices.
     
  15. dixonmassey Valued Senior Member

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    How would you know that it's YOU who takes responsibility and makes choices? Lemme guess - you think it's so cause voices in your head saying so. Unfortunately, there is a huge gap between believing and knowing. There is no way for you to know whether you have free will or not.

    As a believer, have you decided how it's possible for the omniscient God, who explicitly said that he knew you in a womb, to allow the free will? Have you come up with a solution for this puzzle?

    Do you think that Calvin and Calvinist also didn't (and still don't) want to take responsibility for their lives?
     
  16. madanthonywayne Morning in America Staff Member

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    Sure I have. God knows everything that is, down to the last molecule. Imagine an infinitely powerful computer with perfect knowledge of everything that is. With this knowledge, he can easily predict what will happen. Indeed, I believe he built the universe to achieve his ends like a pool player lining up a multiball shot.

    But he built uncertainty into the universe at a fundamental level (quantum mechanics). Einstein said God does not play dice with the universe. In my opinion, he does. This was to give us freewill. To make morality real. For without choice, their is no right or wrong. No good or evil.

    God kicked us out of eden because eating of the tree of knowledge would make us too much like him. Do you think he meant that we would become unthinking automatons without choice?

    Of course not. We became thinking beings capable of making moral choices. Capable of choosing good or evil.

    PS Here's the lyrics to one of my favorite songs that expresses my feeling in this matter quite well:


     
  17. dixonmassey Valued Senior Member

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    Sorry, if there is uncertainty, there is no omniscience, if there is no omniscience, there is no Christian God, cause Bible can't lie. If there is knowledge of you in a womb, there no free will (for your mother, at least).

    What I think is that Jesus (not speaking of Old Testament Lord) have certain (if not most) features of a psychopathic control freak, demanding absolute obedience or else. Sure, technically speaking, if you have a choice between a good meal and death in a molten metal, you may choose molten metal bath, but common. There is no common sense freedom there, it's clear even for the wicked humans, but not to the omniscient, omniloving God.

    You can't choose between good and evil, because it's purely cultural concepts. Had you been kidnapped and raised elsewhere your sets of "good and evil" would've been quite different. Humans are not flies, they need society to load their matrixes. Without society humans raised by wolves, for example,don't even suspect that "good and evil" exist.
     
  18. dixonmassey Valued Senior Member

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    Sure, song is nice, if you already believe in what it says, that's what faith is for. And I'm not quite sure, if one has complete control over what he believes in.
     
  19. Reiku Banned Banned

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    Correct, whilst quantum uncertainty exists, no God can exist, [that has all knowledge]. Now this need not violate anyone beliefs, only that we need to change our veiws of how God operates.
    AND I KNOW God could not know every molecule and every particle. For God to know at least 10% of 10^80 particles, knowing their locations and paths, will inevitably result in a catastrophic annihilation of all the matter in the universe.
     
  20. peta9 Registered Senior Member

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    Sure they would, just in a more natural or direct manner. They would run away from predators, feel sad, scared or lonely at times even if those feelings did not consciously register with them as such. These are all beginnings or roots of 'morality'. You make it seem morality is an artificial concept and it sure as hell ain't anymore than you wanting to happy or well and others empathize and respect it!
     
  21. Yorda Registered Senior Member

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    let me get straight to the point: you are just a bunch of morons, because you think i'm a moron because i called you moron even though i have no choice but to call you morons because everything is predetermined.

    sorry, i didn't write this.
     
  22. Reiku Banned Banned

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    ''let me get straight to the point: you are just a bunch of morons, because you think i'm a moron because i called you moron even though i have no choice but to call you morons because everything is predetermined.

    sorry, i didn't write this.''

    Everything we do or ever say is somehow recorded and written down into the fabric of space and time. Yours is now written also.
     
  23. Oli Heute der Enteteich... Registered Senior Member

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    mene mene tekel upharsin
     
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