Is ET Out There?

Hehe... better send a message to Paul Dixon

Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

 

Log in or Sign up to hide all adverts.

As for the reception commitee: take a look at the Raelian Society.
They want to build an embassy on earth for the Aliens,...

I think it's just a matter of mindset. Look at it with the eyes of an Alien and you'll soon notice that you find humans verry pittyfull. (No, I don't feel sorry for myself: this is not a projection)

If you want to know a bit more about UFO's ect: I recommend this site Lots of info and not dis-info.

 

Log in or Sign up to hide all adverts.

First of all: YOU would treat an Alien with respect and courtesy! That doesn't imply the goverment would do the same.

Second: Life CAN be Vérry verry different from that on earth. Why? Because the Univers we live in has probably some rather unique form:

Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

This implies that the univers has other characteristics on the other end of it.

Third: How fascinated are you by a bunch of PIGS on the plains of the savanne? Are you intrested in their culture? The sounds they make? Their Evolution? They patterns that they seem to have in group Hiearchy?

How Fascinated are you?

I strongly advise and suggest you read up on the subject, there could be another you on the other side of this universe!

Here, read this!

Fascinated yet?

I hope we can inspîre you to let go of your DuLL image of what you are living in,...

this is the UNIVERSE we're talking about! EVerything is possible!!!!

Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

Smile! You're on Alien camera!

 

Log in or Sign up to hide all adverts.

The government would always welcome the chance to advance it's scientific tecnology........An alien space ship full of advanced good intentioned intelligent aliens would most certainly give them that opportunity. Would the government just let them land here and they (the aliens) present us with bunch of alien flowers and a goodwill message from their alien president or whoever is in control of their planet and then let just let them leave???........Give me break. Their spacecraft would immediately be surrounded and impunded by the military and the aliens would wisked away into parts unknown and never to be seen again, likewise their spaceship too. If I were them, I would start blasting as soon as I saw the first military vehicle pull up......

Atta Boy

 

A previous post provided a link an article from Scientific American.

I have a lot of respect for Scientific American, but the above seems pretty far out. Intelligent life itself seems to have been a lucky fluke rather than an evolutionary inevitability. The dinosaurs were here for about 150 million years and never evolved toward intelligence. The above article is not merely predicting intelligent life, but is claiming that any individual here on Earth has an exact duplicate somewhere. For me to have an exact duplicate would require exact duplicates of my parents and my life time environment; Exact duplicates of my 4 grandparents and their life time environments; Et cetera.

I would like to see the calculations resulting in the conclusion

 

This is the kind of pessimistic and arrogant thinking that leads us to conclude were the centre of the universe.

We know there is life here. So if life is possible, tell me, why it should not be possible elsewhere? What leads you to think it is a "fluke" ?

The key problem here is "I" I say you're just numbers. These numbers happen elsewhere too.

 

Crazy Mikey: You should read more carefully. I never said that life itself is a lucky fluke. I said that intelligent life seems to be a lucky fluke. Examine the only evidence we have. The following are conclusions from another thread which provided more detail and some numbers.

• Life occurred on Earth almost as soon as it was possible for it to exist. This suggests that life occurs wherever & when ever it is possible for it to occur, indicating that life is probably very common in the universe.
• The dinosaurs and similar creatures existed for about 150 million years or more, and are believed to have been wiped out by an unusual cosmic accident, namely a large asteroid which hit the Earth about 65 million years ago. Except for that freak accident, they might have survived for 20-100 million more years. The evidence indicates that dinosaurs did not evolve in the direction of intelligence, yet they were very successful survivors. This indicates that intelligence is not a necessary survival trait for large animals. Cockroaches and other insects have been here for 300 million or more years, indicating that small creatures can survive without evolving toward intelligence.
• The Neanderthals only survived for about 100,000 years, and they are believed to have been as intelligent as our species, indicating that intelligence does not guarantee long term survival.
• Our species has been here for about 150,000 (maybe less) years. Our solar system existed for about 4.6 billion years (almost its entire history) before an intelligent species appeared. This suggests that intelligent life is rare compared to life in general. It also suggests that intelligent life might be a lucky fluke, rather than an evolutionary necessity.

Our very late arrival and the failure of the Neanderthals strongly imply that intelligent life is likely to be rare or perhaps even non-existent in the universe. I do not think that my opinion is pessimistic or arrogant, only a good guess based on the only evidence available at this time.

 

Dinosaur

I tend to agree with you. I don't think intelligence necessarily follows evolution but is one possible outcome, based on the multitudes of outcomes already present on Earth and all that came before but are now extinct.

 

Dinasour:

I actually meant "intelligent life" too. It was all encompassing "life and intelligent life" in this case, how does it prove "intelligent life" is a "fluke"?

What makes you think the dinasours would not have evolved further into an intelligent species?

What makes you think original life everywhere would be dinasours? We have emerged from single celled organisms and fish. They existed during the reign of the dinasours too. Hence, we would have emerged, even if the dinasours were not eradicated.

What makes you think in the entire history of a planet a mass extinction would not occur again?

What makes you think we are the only "intelligent life" on Earth? What about the animals?

What makes you think intelligence is not a natural stage in evolution?

In case you don't know, every animal on this planet, has been evolving, and they actually get smarter to cope with the world. Eventually, assuming they survive, even other animals will evolve into an intelligent race.

What makes you think human intelligence is the highest a biological species can achieve?

I think it's quite simple: vacuum - big bang - interstellar gas - matter - stars - planets - life - intelligent life - social life - intergalactic life. I don't see why evolution would just stop, nature has a bias to build from simple to more complex, so why would it stop at a planet, or a single-celled organism. Want to tell me?

 

Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

One of the oldest debates in exobiology. Some think that evolution goes like a shot from the emergence of trilobites to the domestication of fire; others think that, even given 10 - 15 billion years of animal evolution, the development of technical civilizations in unlikely.

The bottom line is: as long as we are restricted to examining 1 or 2 evolutionary paths, on a single planet, there is no way to know. A statistical analysis cannot be accomplished with only 1 data point.

Sure, the majority of evolutionary history here on Earth produced no technical intelligence; but, for all we know, it may have come close more than once. Our proto-human ancestors were few in number, weak and poorly-adapted. They could easily have become extinct during the rapid climate changes of the Pleistocence Epoch, before having a chance to tame fire or start farming. Intelligent dinosaurs or therapsids, if they evolved and passed away before making their mark on the planet, could well have left no fossil trace we've yet discovered.

65 million years of evolution was enough to turn tiny pre-primate arboreal insectivores into humans; such a rapid progression could presumably happen again, as long as suitably adaptable progenitors exist. It might be that, once a planet has reached a certain basic level of biological sophistication, it can produce intelligent species at relatively short intervals.

 

I've got to agree with you. It is obviously possible because, well, we are here. Even if the probability of intelligent life is set very low there are still enough places for it to exist... even if we are never actually able to see it.

 

Starthane,

Thank you my man.

"Intelligent dinosaurs or therapsids, if they evolved and passed away before making their mark on the planet, could well have left no fossil trace we've yet discovered."

I have wondered about his: How do we know, that intelligent dinasours did not exist then? We have estimated that dinasours brains were small from fossils, but how do we know for sure? In fact, the size of the brain does not necessarily indicate intelligence(does it?) They could have been geniuses and still have a brain the size of a walnut.

In fact, life started quite rapidly from the moment the Earth was formed. From thereon, intelligent life could have formed in just 10 million years. That did not happen here(or did it?) but there is absolutely no need for long periods of evolutionary stasis. So either there has been many races of intelligent life on Earth before, or elsewhere, intelligent life forms quite rapidly.

 

I'm still a big fan of the Drake equasion, it shows us with a mathematical certainty that there has to be, without a doubt, Intelligent life somewhere, and with the terrestial planet finder we're gonna find us some earth sized planets within habitable zones and then with spectrographic analisys, we're gonna determine wheter of not there's life on those planets!

Isn't it exiting? Within our lifetime, we're gonna find life elswhere in the galaxy!

 

We have Fukushi

Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

 

Could you elaborate on this?

 

Crazy Mikey: Answers to some of your questions.

• What makes you think original life everywhere would be dinasours? I do not think that life every where would be dinosaurs. What makes you think I said that?
• What makes you think human intelligence is the highest a biological species can achieve? I never said this either, although it might be a good approximation to the limit of how much intelligence is likely to evolve. There is a certain efficiency to evolution. Note that no large animals have more or less than 4 limbs. A 6-legged deer, lion, elephant, et cetera would not be much (if any) faster or more maneuverable, but would have extra body mass requiring extra resources for maintenance. A lot more intelligence would not have increased our survival chances much in prehistoric times, but would require a lot of extra resources for maintenance. If you compare the ratio of our brain’s mass to overall body mass and measure the amount of glucose and other resources used by the brain, you will find that the resource usage is way out of proportion to brain size. I suspect that extra intelligence might not be an efficient design for prehistoric man. Now that we have technology, there is not a lot of evolutionary pressure for increased intelligence. The dummies in this world manage to survive fairly well due to the efforts of the best and the brightest.
• What makes you think the dinasours would not have evolved further into an intelligent species? In 150 millions it did not happen. As far as I know, all the experts consider dinosaurs to have been damn dumb for all 150 million years or so of their existence. Note that in all that time, they never evolved the type of hands required for making and using tools, which is considered a necessary prerequisite for the evolution of intelligence. First you need monkey capable of picking up a stick or stone and using it as is. That is the first step toward the evolution of tool making and the intelligence required for a technological species. What makes you think dinosaurs would have evolved intelligence if they survived longer? Sounds like you have an opinion based on wishful thinking or faith instead of evidence.
• What makes you think intelligence is not a natural stage in evolution? Of all the species who have ever existed on Earth, only the primates evolved hands suitable for making and using tools. Of all the primates who have ever existed, only we and the Neanderthals evolved to become tool makers and users. The Neandrthals did not survive, suggesting that intelligence is no guarantee of evolutionary success. Note that there are many species who were successful survivors without having evolved in the direction of intelligence. Evolution results in creatures who are successful at propagating their genes to the next generation. This can happen without intelligence, ergo intelligence is not a necessary result of evolution. It may or may not happen. For approximately 99.9967% of the history of the Earth, there was no intelligent life. For approximately 99.9958% of the history of life on Earth, there were no intelligent species. The only evidence we have strongly suggests that intelligent life rarely occurs.

The above and remarks in my previous post indicate the basis for my opinions. I have yet to see you provide a basis for yours.

Scifi literature is very interesting and I enjoy it. It is not evidence, only interesting fiction.

 

Dinosaur;
You asked how the calculation referenced in the Scientic American arrived at this conclusion; "that you have a twin in a galaxy about 10 to the 1028 meters from here".

In fact this is calculated by looking at the amount of matter in the observable universe, and then estimating the total number of possible states that matter can reasonably be in; as we exist in such an example of a possible universe, it is possible to calculate the chances that our exact set of circumstances are repeated;

this chance is infinitesimal, but calculable.

Then if you assume that the universe extends infinitely in all directions beyond our own observable universe, aand similar physical laws apply throughout, the conditions that apply in our observable universe will be exactly replicated at an average distance of 10^1028m, which is a very long way away.

Of course there will be many near matches...

 

You claimed that the chances of intelligent life are "fluke" using the basis, that had the dinosours not been eradicated, there would have been no intelligent life. However, as you say, you don't think dinasours would be the original species everywhere. Then should I assume, for ET life, you original objection no longer stands?

Thank you for the details. Would you not agree, however, that technology has helped us climb the food-chain? If so, how can you say intelligence is not needed for survival?

Actually, dinosours DID evolve limbs, that they used to handle their food. They may not have been as efficient as hands, although that is not to suggest, they could not have evolved further into hands.

Secondly, scientists, cannot say absolutely, what dinosour intelligence was like. Brain-mass does not necessarily imply greater intelligence. Please bear in mind, our knowledge of the dinasours is based on fossils from millions of years ago. This in itself cannot provide conclusive evidence for how intelligent or not intelligent the dinasaurs were.

While we can make educated guesses, based on the brain-mass to body ratio, it does not absolutely indicate what their intelligence would be.

We know of some dinasours with quite large brains, the triceratops for instance, has a brain around 1kg, which is quite large, as our brain mass is 1.5kg. However, our brain to body mass ratio of 1:50 based on an average size of 70kg. While triceratops is based on 9000kg, making their brain no larger than a walnut. If we are to take this as a direct measure of intelligence. Does it therefore mean:

An human less than 70kg weight is more intelligent than a human with more than 70kg.
A human over 70kg is less intelligent than a a human with less than 70kg
A human with a larger brain is more intelligent than a human with a smaller brain.
A human with a smaller brain is less intelligent than a human with a larger brain
A sparrow with a brain ratio of 1:20 is more than twice intelligent than a human?

None of the above are true. Hence, brain mass: body ratio is not an accurate tool to measure intelligence.

Is it brain mass then?

A human with a smaller brain can be more intelligent than a human with a larger brain.

A Sperm whale, with a brain, 8.6kg, is not necessarily more intelligent than a human.

Finally: A computer the size of 40 feet by 30 feet using vacuum tubes is not more powerful than a computer 4nm by 3nm using nanotechnology. Is it?

As we have absolutely no evidence as to how the dinosour brain functioned, we cannot absolutely say, how intelligent they are. We can only guess, and for all we know, that guess could be wrong. In fact, theoretically speaking, a smaller brain or larger brain mass to body mass ratio, could be more powerful than a larger brain and a smaller brain mass to body mass ratio. This depends on; higher metabolic rate, more active brains, faster synapses, sharper nerve impulses could all contribute to greater efficiency of the brain.

Further more, we can only guess with the fossils we found. Not on fossils we have not found. Thus for arguments sake, if the dinosaur fossils we found, were the equivalent of our animals - then the fossils we have not found, could be the equivalent of us.

You should not jump to conclusions, especially when you don't have evidence yourself. I do have evidence. In fact, there is a lot of evidence to suggest, that dinosours were starting to become more intelligent than they initially were, and quite rapidly in fact.

Some such as the dromaeosaurs (Velociraptor, Deinonychus) and the troodonts (Troodon, Saurornithoides) had brains equal in size to those of modern birds. They were fast and highly active predators.

Adrian Desmond, Prolific Darwinian scientist:

Another prominent Darwinian scientist, and discoverer of stenonyschosaurus,
Dale Russell, has also postulated that late Cretaceous dinosaurs were well on the way to becoming intellectual animals, and would have succeeded if the dinosaurs had not suffered extinction. Stenonychosaurus had an opposable thumb, stood upright about three feet tall and had binocular vision. Russell commented:

It had all the ingredients of success that we see later in the development of the apes.

Russell further went onto extrapolate what the Stenonychosarus would have looked like, had it evolved further and unhampered. Based on convergent evolution and on common traits from the dinasours in the time: He came up with the following startling image of a dinosaouroid.

http://library.thinkquest.org/26615/data/image/Troondon and Dinosauroid.GIF

What does this all mean?

It means, there is absolutely nothing to suggest, that the dinasaurs would not have evolved into an intelligent species. In fact, it may also suggeest, that there may have been intelligent dinosours - although that requires more evidence.

As it stands now, from the facts presented, your 99.9967% is clearly bogus.
You also make the naive assumption, that intelligence, is only intelligence when it is technological. You cannot profess to measure the intelligence between species, without having a method to identify and quantify that intelligence. As we know, intelligence is a multi-faceted ability, it is not just about scientific and mathmatical endaveour; it is about social cohesion; formulating strategies in hunting your prey and surviving; enjoying your life.

We know for a fact that many living organiams are consistently evolving and becoming more intelligent and adapting to their environment, clearly suggesting that intelligence is a progressive and necessary aspect of life.

Sea otter are intelligent enough to use pebbles as tools to break the shells of shellfish and crack open their shells.

Hyenas that can run only at 40 mph, are intelligent enough to hunt as teams to capture faster animals, like wild beasts. Prairie dogs, horticultural animals, will cut down plants, that they do not like, so they can create more space for plants they do like.

Dolphins are almost(if not more?) as intelligent as humans, and in fact, had the dolphins stayed on land and evolved further, they could have been more intelligent than humans today, with possibly more advanced technology.

Dolphins can communicate with each other, play with each other, even express emotions, and show a great sense of humour and playfulness. In fact, they even seem to understand humans, and may actually be trying to communicate with us. It would be so ironic, if they considered us to be "inferior" lol

Here are some excellent article on Dolphins: http://www.polaris.net/~rblacks/dolphins.htm
http://www.bellydancegoddessworkoutdolphina.com/intelligence.html

In other words, intelligent life on Earth, is actually very abundant, and there is absolutely no reason to believe that they are incapable of developing technology. We are only 1 million years old; and homosapians are only 10,000 years old. Evolution takes over millions of years. For all we know - there could have been a multitide of intelligent species on Earth.

"This strongly suggests intelligent life is rare"

Rubbish. This strongly suggest that intelligent life is abundant on Earth, and it suggests in one sample out of a possible infinite samples in the universe, there is intelligent life capable of building a radio telescope.

Therefore there is absolutely no basis to the theory of intelligent life being extremely rare or some cosmic "fluke" from what we know, there are millions of places in our own galaxy that have all the prerequisities for supporting life, and we know from the evolution on Earth, that intelligence is am evolutionary inevitability. Therefore it must mean ET life is most certainly out there.

It's basically boils down to this: Where life can emerge, it will, and where there is life, there will be intelligent life. In other words, the universe, is teeming with life all over --- and yes --- they can visit us ---- and they are

Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

This is not Scifi literature. This is science and logic. If you want scientific literature, I could tell you that there are millions of aliens co-existing with us for millions of years, that are living in subterranean lands

Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

 

Yea, you're right......I met a couple of them the other day while I was shopping at K-Mart.....

Atta Boy

 

Perhaps they were buying dog food

Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!