^but will these machines really have consciousness? Or will they simply be appearing to have consicousness....
Spidergoat who is an example of someone who doesn't experience a disparity (that they spend their lives trying to address) between their desires and what the world offers?
Vital one Even great paragons of the "if it feels good do it" philosophy like freud conceded that there is the "reality principle" - that you have to settle with a lot less desire fulfilment than desire. Enlightenment aims at addressing this however BG 2.70: A person who is not disturbed by the incessant flow of desires — that enter like rivers into the ocean, which is ever being filled but is always still — can alone achieve peace, and not the man who strives to satisfy such desires.
There's a great difference. You can make a machine that talks, walks, and acts like us...but that doesn't mean it really has real consciousness. That doesn't mean it thinks in the same way, its just a machine. I disagree, you do not have to settle for a lot less desire fulfillment than desire. You can instead fulfill all your desires, because they all stem from one desire. Remember, no suffering to even the smallest imaginable extent. If you desire to fulfill all of your desires, you can do so: SB 11.15.17: One who fixes his pure mind on Me in My manifestation as the impersonal Brahman obtains the greatest happiness, wherein all his desires are completely fulfilled. This is the highest perfection....as you possess the greatest happiness... Everyone desires enlightenment already without even knowing it. The reason people desire money is because they see it as the "end of all suffering". The reason people desire power is because they see it as the "end of all suffering". Whatever you have a true, burning desire for, you unconsciously believe it is the "end of all suffering". However in reality, it isn't the end of all suffering, so due to your ignorance you fail to realize the true path to the end of all suffering.
then it appears that you are advocating the option in bold from my earlier post Since everyone in this world suffers like this, the next question is whether this incompatability between our desires and this world is the irrevocable aspect of existence or whether it indicates an essential error of ways that has to be addressed
VitalOne first you have to understand what the brahma bhuta platform is SB 4.30.20: Always engaging in the activities of devotional service, devotees feel ever-increasingly fresh and new in all their activities. The all-knower, the Supersoul within the heart of the devotee, makes everything increasingly fresh. This is known as the Brahman position by the advocates of the Absolute Truth. In such a liberated stage [brahma-bhūta], one is never bewildered. Nor does one lament or become unnecessarily jubilant. This is due to the brahma-bhūta situation. if your desire innvolves hankering and lamentation you are not on the platform of brahman BG 5.25: Those who are beyond the dualities that arise from doubts, whose minds are engaged within, who are always busy working for the welfare of all living beings, and who are free from all sins achieve liberation in the Supreme. If your desire is sinful you cannot fulfill it and claim to be on the platform of brahman BG 6.27: The yogī whose mind is fixed on Me verily attains the highest perfection of transcendental happiness. He is beyond the mode of passion, he realizes his qualitative identity with the Supreme, and thus he is freed from all reactions to past deeds. If you are undergoing the reactions of your previous deeds you are not on the brahman platform BG 13.31: When a sensible man ceases to see different identities due to different material bodies and he sees how beings are expanded everywhere, he attains to the Brahman conception. If you view yourself as your body (man/woman, sick/healthy, young/old) and express desires of that bodily designation as the ultimate in fulfilment you are not on the platform of brahman BG 8.11: Persons who are learned in the Vedas, who utter oḿkāra and who are great sages in the renounced order enter into Brahman. Desiring such perfection, one practices celibacy. I shall now briefly explain to you this process by which one may attain salvation. Sex desire is absent on the platform of brahman Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! BG 18.54: One who is thus transcendentally situated at once realizes the Supreme Brahman and becomes fully joyful. He never laments or desires to have anything. He is equally disposed toward every living entity. In that state he attains pure devotional service unto Me. If despite doing all this you feel miserable (ie perceive there is something lacking or that you are artificially restraining yourself from material engagement) you are not on the level of brahman BG 14.26: One who engages in full devotional service, unfailing in all circumstances, at once transcends the modes of material nature and thus comes to the level of Brahman. One who performs bhakti unfailingly in all circumstances is on the level of brahman BG 18.50: O son of Kuntī, learn from Me how one who has achieved this perfection can attain to the supreme perfectional stage, Brahman, the stage of highest knowledge, by acting in the way I shall now summarize. BG 18.51-53: Being purified by his intelligence and controlling the mind with determination, giving up the objects of sense gratification, being freed from attachment and hatred, one who lives in a secluded place, who eats little, who controls his body, mind and power of speech, who is always in trance and who is detached, free from false ego, false strength, false pride, lust, anger, and acceptance of material things, free from false proprietorship, and peaceful — such a person is certainly elevated to the position of self-realization. The qualities of being on the platform of brahman does not at all indicate that one can do anything and everything and be situated as such SB 3.15.43: When the breeze carrying the aroma of tulasī leaves from the toes of the lotus feet of the Personality of Godhead entered the nostrils of those sages, they experienced a change both in body and in mind, even though they were attached to the impersonal Brahman understanding. Despite being on the platform of brahman the 4 kumaras were attracted to the bhagavan feature (Can you show an instance of someone attacted to the bhagavan feature of the absolute being attracted to brahman?) SB 12.12.69: Let me offer my respectful obeisances unto my spiritual master, the son of Vyāsadeva, Śukadeva Gosvāmī. It is he who defeats all inauspicious things within this universe. Although in the beginning he was absorbed in the happiness of Brahman realization and was living in a secluded place, giving up all other types of consciousness, he became attracted by the pleasing, most melodious pastimes of Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa. He therefore mercifully spoke this supreme Purāṇa, Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, which is the bright light of the Absolute Truth and which describes the activities of the Lord. Its ironic that you quote the bhagavatm to establish that brahman is the ultimate in happiness, when it is clearly indicated that its purpose is to elaborate on an even higher value of happiness SB 1.7.10: All different varieties of ātmārāmas [those who take pleasure in ātmā, or spirit self], especially those established on the path of self-realization, though freed from all kinds of material bondage, desire to render unalloyed devotional service unto the Personality of Godhead. This means that the Lord possesses transcendental qualities and therefore can attract everyone, including liberated souls. clearly established (that brahman is not the ultimate in happiness, compared to bhagavan realization) in more places than one Hari-bhakti sudhodaya (14.36) "My dear Lord, O master of the universe, since I have directly seen You, my transcendental bliss has taken the shape of a great ocean. Thus I now regard the happiness derived from understanding impersonal Brahman to be like the water contained in a calf's hoofprint Just in case things had to be spelt out any clearer desiring enlightment therefore begins with the knowledge of relationships, namely the relationship between oneself and the absolute - if one views oneself as the absolute there is no possibility of enlightenment
how do one achive enlightenment ?Only after several years(ages) of buddhas passings only scriptures/recordings about the buddha were made ..meaning these scriptures may not be absolute true
The literal truth of Buddhas scriptures are less important than the relatively simple methods he outlined for achieving enlightenment on one's own.
Except I don't consider the lack of enlightenment to be an error of ways. I don't think Buddhism makes this sort of absolute judgement. If you are satisfied with your life as it is, then there is no problem.
I think no Cyber Sapien is going to have consciousness because the most difficult aspect of human life is the ‘reason’ for being alive. Those who suicide (stop working from a Cyber Sapien perspective) they do not see a ‘reason’ for being alive and decide not to live. And if we are not able to fill in that ‘reason’ in to a Cyber Sapien then at some point of time it is going to give up (die) as well. I will not consider a Cyber Sapien, that stopped working because there are not proper reasons (commit suicide), as conscious Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Are humans alive because without any specific training we see/find reasons for being alive every day? Hoping to hit the chick next door, drink the oldest wine, if possible fly one day…??
SB11.9.4 In this world two types of people are free from all anxiety and merged in great happiness: one who is a retarded and childish fool and one who has approached the Supreme Lord, who is beyond the three modes of material nature. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Why would it be impossible for a machine to have a reason to exist? They could provide reasons to us, like Douglas Adams' electric monk.
No reason at all (If you are incapable of discerning the difference between science fiction and non-fiction titles)
I see you fulfill the criteria that I mentioned in brackets Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! (my mistake - I have edited the bit in brackets now)
