Is consciousness to be found in quantum processes in microtubules?

Write4U · Nov 2, 2020

exchemist said: ↑

This point is glossed over in most standard biochemical explanations, which always seem to witter on in an unsatisfying way about "pathways" and "electron transport chains", without showing any actual mechanisms at the molecular level. (This is one reason why I avoided the biochemistry supplementary option at university and went for the hardcore QM option instead
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highlight mine.

Looked into the microtubule transport system yet?

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billvon · Nov 2, 2020

exchemist said: ↑

In fact, there is a non-trivial aspect to this. There is a valid question here about what the mechanism is by which this reaction, which is essentially the same as combustion, can take place at ambient conditions in a cell, without generating the highly reactive and hence destructive radical intermediates one sees in a combustion reaction.
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Hmm, I just assumed that it was another redox reaction like iron oxidation. AFAIK atomic oxygen is never present in that oxidation reaction; it proceeds via exchange of free electrons, H+ and OH- radicals.

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billvon · Nov 2, 2020

Write4U said: ↑

Looked into the microtubule transport system yet?
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Is there anything you believe that microtubules do NOT do? That might be a shorter list.

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Write4U · Nov 2, 2020

billvon said: ↑

Is there anything you believe that microtubules do NOT do? That might be a shorter list.
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Not much. They are ubiquitous throughout the body. Trillions of them. And transport is what they do.

What are the functions of microtubules
There are 4 main functions of microtubules:

1.To form an architectural framework that establishes the overall polarity of the cell by influencing the organization of the nucleus, organelles and other cytoskeleton components.
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2. To form the spindle apparatus and ensure the proper segregation of duplicated chromosomes into daughter cells during cell division (i.e. cytokinesis). The spindle apparatus also regulates the assembly and location of the actin-rich contractile ring that pinches and separates the two daughter cells.
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3.To form an internal transport network for the trafficking of vesicles containing essential materials to the rest of the cell. This trafficking is mediated by microtubule associated proteins (MAPs) with motor protein activity such as kinesin and dynein.
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4. To form a rigid internal core that is used by microtubule-associated motor proteins to generate force and movement in motile structures such as cilia and flagella. A core of microtubules in the neural growth cone and axon also imparts stability and drives neural navigation and guidance.
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https://www.mechanobio.info/cytoskeleton-dynamics/what-is-the-cytoskeleton/what-are-microtubules/#

Whenever you see the word "cyto-" , microtubules are involved.

exchemist · Nov 3, 2020

billvon said: ↑

Hmm, I just assumed that it was another redox reaction like iron oxidation. AFAIK atomic oxygen is never present in that oxidation reaction; it proceeds via exchange of free electrons, H+ and OH- radicals.
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I'm rusty on this (haha) but I think it starts with O2 being adsorbed on the iron surface and dissociating into adsorbed (and thereby stabilised) O atoms, which then pick up electrons from the metal, though one could maybe regard the adsorbed molecule as having some of the characteristics of O2⁻.

This type of stabilisation is not available in reactions with organic molecules. Oxidation reactions in organic chemistry, where there are no metal surfaces to help, generally use agents other than free oxygen, which are more specific in how they react. It is interesting that cytochrome oxidase in fact relies on an iron atom to bind the O2, much as haemoglobin does for O2 transport.

(But anyway, as cytochrome oxidase has nothing to do with micro-sodding-tubules, I suppose this discussion is off-topic.
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Write4U · Nov 3, 2020

exchemist said: ↑

(But anyway, as cytochrome oxidase has nothing to do with micro-sodding-tubules, I suppose this discussion is off-topic.
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I am not complaining. This side discussion is very interesting and informative.....
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(and may even be tangently related)

One thing is clear; blood (oxygen carrier) contains microtubules. Most all electro-chemical information processes do involve microtubules.

Balance of microtubule stiffness and cortical tension determines the size of blood cells with marginal band across species
Serge Dmitrieff,a Adolfo Alsina,a Aastha Mathur,a and François J. Nédéleca,1

This article has been cited by other articles in PMC.

The discoidal shape of many blood cells is essential to their proper function within the organism. For blood platelets and other cells, this shape is maintained by the marginal band, which is a closed ring of filaments called microtubules. This ring is elastic and pushes on the cell cortex, a tense polymer scaffold associated with the plasma membrane.
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Dmitrieff et al. examined how the mechanical balance between these two components determine cell size, uncovering a scaling law that is observed in data collected from 25 species.
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The analysis also indicated that the cell can resist much higher mechanical challenges than the microtubule ring alone, in the same way as a tent with its cloth is stronger than the poles alone.
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https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5410777/#

Write4U · Nov 3, 2020

exchemist said: ↑

This type of stabilisation is not available in reactions with organic molecules. Oxidation reactions in organic chemistry, where there are no metal surfaces to help, generally use agents other than free oxygen, which are more specific in how they react. It is interesting that cytochrome oxidase in fact relies on an iron atom to bind the O2, much as haemoglobin does for O2 transport.
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Mitochondria are associated with microtubules and not with intermediate filaments in cultured fibroblasts. E H Ball and S J Singer

This article has been cited by other articles in PMC.

Abstract

Triple-immuno fluorescence experiments with antibodies to cytochrome c oxidase, tubulin, and vimentin have been used to immunolabel the mitochondria, microtubules, and intermediate filaments inside the same cultured fibroblasts. In particular, fibroblasts were immunolabeled after they had either been transformed by infection with Rous sarcoma virus or given long-term treatment with cycloheximide.
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These treatments induced redistribution of the intermediate filaments into a perinuclear arrangement, segregated away from the microtubules, which remained extended to the cell periphery. In such cells, many labeled mitochondria were observed to be codistributed with the peripherally located microtubules. From these results, we infer that an association, probably involving some type of chemical linkage(s), between mitochondria and microtubules exists in these cells that is independent of the intermediate filaments.
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https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC345674/

Write4U · Nov 8, 2020

This does not directly address consciousness, but it does speak of the role microtubules play in cancer, i.e. uncontrolled cell-growth.

Spindle microtubule dysfunction and cancer predisposition
Jason Stumpff,1,* Prachi N. Ghule,2,* Akiko Shimamura,3,4 Janet L. Stein,2 and Marc Greenblatt5

The publisher's final edited version of this article is available at J Cell Physiol
See other articles in PMC that cite the published article.

Abstract

Chromosome segregation and spindle microtubule dynamics are strictly coordinated during cell division in order to preserve genomic integrity. Alterations in the genome that affect microtubule stability and spindle assembly during mitosis may contribute to genomic instability and cancer predisposition, but directly testing this potential link poses a significant challenge.
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Germ-line mutations in tumor suppressor genes that predispose patients to cancer and alter spindle microtubule dynamics offer unique opportunities to investigate the relationship between spindle dysfunction and carcinogenesis. Mutations in two such tumor suppressors, adenomatous polyposis coli (APC) and Shwachman-Bodian-Diamond syndrome (SBDS), affect multifunctional proteins that have been well characterized for their roles in Wnt signaling and interphase ribosome assembly, respectively.
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Less understood, however, is how their shared involvement in stabilizing the microtubules that comprise the mitotic spindle contributes to cancer predisposition. Here, we briefly discuss the potential for mutations in APC and SBDS as informative tools for studying the impact of mitotic spindle dysfunction on cellular transformation.
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https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4149604/

river · Nov 8, 2020

exchemist said: ↑

In fact, there is a non-trivial aspect to this. There is a valid question here about what the mechanism is by which this reaction, which is essentially the same as combustion, can take place at ambient conditions in a cell, without generating the highly reactive and hence destructive radical intermediates one sees in a combustion reaction.

This point is glossed over in most standard biochemical explanations, which always seem to witter on in an unsatisfying way about "pathways" and "electron transport chains", without showing any actual mechanisms at the molecular level. (This is one reason why I avoided the biochemistry supplementary option at university and went for the hardcore QM option instead
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I've dug into this and it seems molecular oxygen is handled by cytochrome oxidase, which contains a heme structure involving Fe and also a structure involving Cu. Oxygen is apparently bound to Fe, rather as it is in haemoglobin in the blood, and reacts attached to this site in some way. But it looks as if the details of precisely how the O=O bond is split and the two resulting O atoms are handled is, or was until recently, still a topic of research. Here is an article from 1999 with more details: https://www.pnas.org/content/96/23/12971
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Finally Objectivity by Someone , exchemist in this case . All I asked was a simple and legitimate question . Thats all .

river · Nov 19, 2020

exchemist , your thinking .

Asexperia · Dec 6, 2020

DaveC426913 said: ↑

As with Elvis' Parallelochron, ignorance is not always a bad thing.
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IN THE PARALLELOCHRON WE VISUALIZE TIME.

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DaveC426913 · Dec 6, 2020

Asexperia said: ↑

IN THE PARALLELOCHRON WE VISUALIZE TIME.

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Tee hee. Asexperia invoked a Write4U ism.

Write4U · Dec 6, 2020

DaveC426913 said: ↑

Tee hee. Asexperia invoked a Write4U ism.
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As long as time is identified as a measurement of duration, I am happy when my perspective is compatible with other approaches to the question. When different perspectives have Common Denominators, it usually tends to strengthen the truth of both perspectives......
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exchemist · Dec 6, 2020

DaveC426913 said: ↑

Tee hee. Asexperia invoked a Write4U ism.
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I'm not with you. Do any of these terms appear on your Write4U roulette wheel? Or is it just the overall portentous meaninglessness?
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river · Dec 6, 2020

From Asexperia

PARALLELOGRAM VS PARALLELOCHRON

A parallelogram is a quadrilateral whose pairs of opposite sides are equal and parallel two to two. Parallelograms are square, rhombus, rectangle and rhomboid. Parallelogram is a figure of space and parallelochron is a figure of change or occurrence of phenomena.

Parallelochron is a figure that has one arrow at one end and has two equal parallel longitudinal sides. On the left side duration begins and on the right side duration continues (arrow). One of the longitudinal sides represents the duration of irregular rhythm and the other longitudinal side represents the duration of regular rhythm (time).
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So essentially is one dimension which is divided into two dimensions . Of which neither exists nor can , could exsit in Reality .

Write4U · Dec 6, 2020

river said: ↑

So essentially is one dimension which is divided into two dimensions . Of which neither exists nor can , could exsit in Reality .
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In a Mathematical Universe, such naturally forming chronologies are not unexpected, IMO.

river · Dec 6, 2020

river said: ↑
So essentially is one dimension which is divided into two dimensions . Of which neither exists nor can , could exsit in Reality .
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Write4U said: ↑

In a Mathematical Universe, such naturally forming chronologies are not unexpected, IMO.
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We do not Live in a Universe in that's its very existence depends on mathematics , Alone . By itself . In and of its self .

Mathematics can not create a Universe that is Real and Physical .

Write4U · Dec 6, 2020

Write4U said: ↑

Whenever you see the word "cyto-" , microtubules are involved.
Click to expand...

exchemist said: ↑

(But anyway, as cytochrome oxidase has nothing to do with micro-sodding-tubules, I suppose this discussion is off-topic.
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Correction; The above generality was hasty and ill-considered. Below is an attempt to correct the generality.

What I meant to identify is the role microtubules play in the cytoplasm of cells and the cytoskeleton in particular.

Cytosol

The cytosol is the portion of the cytoplasm not contained within membrane-bound organelles. Cytosol makes up about 70% of the cell volume and is a complex mixture of cytoskeleton filaments, dissolved molecules, and water. The cytosol's filaments include the protein filaments such as actin filaments and
microtubules that make up the cytoskeleton, as well as soluble proteins and small structures such as ribosomes, proteasomes, and the mysterious vault complexes.[13] The inner, granular and more fluid portion of the cytoplasm is referred to as endoplasm.
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Cytoplasmic streaming,

also called protoplasmic streaming and cyclosis, is the flow of the cytoplasm inside the cell, driven by forces from the cytoskeleton.[1] It is likely that its function is, at least in part, to speed up the transport of molecules and organelles around the cell. It is usually observed in large plant and animal cells, greater than approximately 0.1 mm[vague]. In smaller cells, the diffusion of molecules is more rapid, but diffusion slows as the size of the cell increases, so larger cells may need cytoplasmic streaming for efficient function.[1]
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cytoplasmic_streaming

Cytoskeleton

The cytoskeleton is a complex, dynamic network of interlinking protein filaments present in the cytoplasm of all cells, including bacteria and archaea.[1] It extends from the cell nucleus to the cell membrane and is composed of similar proteins in the various organisms. In eukaryotes, it is composed of three main components, microfilaments, intermediate filaments and microtubules, and these are all capable of rapid growth or disassembly dependent on the cell's requirements.[2]
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cytoskeleton

Write4U · Dec 12, 2020

Role of microtubules in the touch sensitivity of the cilia in Venus FlyTrap;

Microtubules Give Structure to Cilia and Flagellum

Microtubules also contribute to the parts of the cell that help it move and are structural elements of cilia, centrioles and flagella. The male sperm cell for example, has a long tail that helps it reach its desired destination, the female ovum. Called a flagellum (the plural is flagella), that long, thread-like tail extends from the exterior of the plasma membrane to power the cell's movement. Most cells – in cells that have them – generally have one to two flagella. When cilia exist on the cell, many of them spread along the full surface of the cell's outer plasma membrane.
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https://sciencing.com/main-function-microtubules-cell-8552402.html

Venus flytrap

The Venus flytrap (Dionaea muscipula) is a carnivorous plant native to subtropical wetlands on the East Coast of the United States in North Carolina and South Carolina.[3] It catches its prey—chiefly insects and arachnids—with a trapping structure formed by the terminal portion of each of the plant's leaves, which is triggered by tiny hairs (called "trigger hairs" or "sensitive hairs") on their inner surfaces.
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When an insect or spider crawling along the leaves contacts a hair, the trap prepares to close, snapping shut only if another contact occurs within approximately twenty seconds of the first strike. Triggers may occur if one-tenth of the insect is within contact.[4] The requirement of redundant triggering in this mechanism serves as a safeguard against wasting energy by trapping objects with no nutritional value, and the plant will only begin digestion after five more stimuli to ensure it has caught a live bug worthy of consumption.
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Flytraps show a clear example of memory in plants, the plant knows if its hair has been touched, and remembers that for a few seconds. The plant then recalls that incident if a second touch happens during that time frame, and closes.[46] After closing, the flytrap counts additional stimulations of the trigger hairs, to five total, to start the production of digesting enzymes.[47]
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venus_flytrap

Proto-consciousness?

Write4U · Dec 12, 2020

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