Is consciousness to be found in quantum processes in microtubules?

Yes indeed, as moderator you should know that if you want to address me personally, you can send me an IM.

To voice your public objections to a thread with 1200+ posts and and 17000+ public views is disruptive and destructive of any positive influence this thread has offered to an obviously interested public.

No, not yawn. Contribute or you shut up, OK?[/quote] YOU WON'T LET ME!

Ohhh, nooooo, your posts are fresh and delightfully interesting?
That's what Trump thinks of himself too. "Very few people know about these tidbits of common knowledge.

Aren't we impressed?

Follow your own advice.

This is off topic even as you have conveniently cloaked it as a response to my post on microtubules. So please stay on topic, so that I don't need to address two unrelated posts.

I answered your post with the observation that paramecium does not have a brain and therefore no long term memory. The study has no informative value at all, other than the short term cellular memory, which I have posted on in detail elsewhere in this thread.

Moreover I posted abundant information on studies of the role microtubules play in long term memory.

Now you come along and show me a quote of a paper which makes a claim, just as my links to some 100 papers make claims to the contrary. Your links are no more authoritative than my links and if you think they are, it is you who is prejudiced and myopic. What makes you think your sources are "better" than my sources?

The problem is not what I post, the problem is that you don't read what I post and have no clue about the current state of research in the incredible role microtubules play in the processing of sensory information.

The post you quoted is useless in context of microtubules being the seat of consciousness in the brain.

That does not follow at all. There are not many reports about me being off topic at all.
Except for an endless stream of redundant bile spouting from your "high intellectual perch".

During my time in Sciforums , I have garnered some 1200+ likes, which demonstrates that there are a few people who seem to agree with my posts. I am not aware of any other complaints from anyone else, except from you three.

This is a manufactured problem by you and two others, and there would not be a problem at all if it were not for you three who have made it a mission in life to shut down this "interloper" who dares to post on new and exciting research in an earnest effort to garner knowledge of the "hard problem" of consciousness.

This kind of attitude is highly prejudicial and unbecoming a friendly gathering to discuss the latest developments in science. You three are insufferable bores and I'm sick of having to deal with you at the same time that I have excellent and interesting discussions with other posters who apparently have absolutely no objections to my posts.

YOU ARE PRACTISING PREJUDICIAL CENSORSHIP, BECAUSE YOU DON'T LIKE MY STYLE ?? GROW UP!

I know you won't stop until you have manufactured a reason to shut this thread down. It is becoming too popular. Can't have that. Science is not a popular pastime, it is a serious endeavor and this is a serious science forum. Must maintain dignity.

Yes by slinging ad hominems at posters who make a good faith effort to post interesting new science.

 

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Which of the microtubules did they disrupt? All of them and still the subject displayed memory? Must have been in the "cilia", right?

What kind of memories does a paramecium store? How do you measure memory in a paramecium? If you can enlighten me in that, it would be very informative.

Two Types of Cilia in a Paramecium

My Little Paramecium

Cilium Structure and Types of Cilia

https://sciencing.com/two-types-cilia-paramecium-18998.html
Apparently a paramecium has at least as many microtubules as it has cilia. The dynamic motor that drives each individual cilium.

But when it comes to microtubules, why not ask Hameroff what causes loss of conscious memory. He is the anesthesiologist and an expert on Alzheimer's disease of Memory loss, which is a result of the catastrophic collapse of microtubules in the brain!
Oh I forgot, he is a unscrupulous quack who is just trying to make a buck with woo science, right? Is it not your assertion that Hameroff is a quack?

Do you want to present other papers on topic, I'll be very happy to make an attempt to answer every question on the topic of possible emergent consciousness from the pervasive information processing network of neurons, all of which employ microtubules to transport electro-chemical information from the entire body to the brain, which processes this information both unconsciously (interoception) and consciously (perception), making the organism "consciously aware" of self, relative to the environment.

 

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And there's the other shoe dropping. You could see it coming a mile off.

It's been pretty apparent Write4U has been deliberately trolling this thread with nothing but complaints so that it pretty much has to be shut down.
And now he's busy manufacturing a "sour grapes" rationalization, so he can blame anybody but himself for this ridiculous thread going down in flames.
How transparent.

 

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Microtubules are biological mathematical processors of electro-chemical information which constitutes the organisms' level as a sentient, living biological pattern.

These side-topics are often related to the OP topic in a tangently related way and connected to the "hard problem" of consciousness.
If this subject cannot be discussed in its broadest form, how can any "in-depth" understanding and meaning of "consciousness" ever be reached?

Please try to contribute positively, instead of negative derision and accusations, it's not productive.

 

Oh, this is precious!!! Almost unbelievable, but true!

Its takes guts to accuse someone of destroying his own result of many hours of research on the OP topic. I am defending it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You are a piece of work Dave. I did misjudge you.

 

[DUPE]

 

There you go Dave , exchemist.....(shakes head). Click!

 

Data analysis is fun and easy!


Of the 17,693 words Write4U posted in the past 179 posts of his own thread, 14.6% were actually about the topic (and more than 50% of that was straight cut-and-paste).

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@ bells

In furtherance of the paper re Paramecium, I came up with this, which might explain any misunderstandings.

Paramecium
Learning,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paramecium#Learning

What memory that would be controlled by microtubules are they talking about? Swimming?

 

If you are talking about loss of memory and ability to learn as a result of Alzheimers disease, that test is totally inadequate for proving anything. Microtubule damage is responsible for Alzheimer's disease.
This is not the result of a test performed by laboratory technicians. The role of gradually failing microtubules in the onset and gradual procession of that terrible disease is well established over many years practical science.
Microtubule-Stabilizing Drugs for Alzheimer’s May Be Ineffective Due to Newly-Uncovered Role of Tau Protein
Posted on: July 3, 2018 in News | Life Science News
By: Sarah Hand, M.Sc

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Could targeting an Alzheimer’s-associated protein prevent Autism?
AutismFeaturedGeneticsNeuroscience
March 2, 2020

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Tau has never before been linked to autism, but it is known for its role in Alzheimer’s disease and other neurodegenerative conditions. The image is in the public domain.

Making the Leap from Alzheimer’s to Autism

https://neurosciencenews.com/autism-alzheimers-protein-15833/

p.s. the learning done in navigation by the paramecium is not real learning (and memorizing), but caused by the kinetic impact of collision, which reverses the mechanical "paddling" motion of the cilia. It has nothing to do with the chemistry or (directional) memory of the microtubule. It's a purely physical counter effect of a collision.

OTOH, if you stop the microtubular motor, the cilia will stop paddling. No ciliar memory of paddling of any kind in any direction without a microtubule.

 

Memory microtubules are not dynamic.

Cytoskeletal Signaling: Is Memory Encoded in Microtubule Lattices by CaMKII Phosphorylation?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3297561/

All this has been posted earlier in this thread.....

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Continued.....

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2791806/

 

In furtherance of some seemingly off-topic posts, this may clarify the comprehensive scope of inquiry into the "hard problem" of consciousness. These posts are informational only and do not necessarily reflect my endorsement or critique.
I'll leave it to others to form a personal opinion of this "interesting" proposition.

Code: A Hydrodynamic Superfluid Quantum Space Guides a Conformal Mental Attribute of Reality. The Hard Problem in Consciousness Studies Revisited

https://www.researchgate.net/public...Hard_Problem_in_Consciousness_Studies_Revisit

 

An a tangently related example of the pervasive presence of microtubules in all forms of dynamic behavior in Eukaryotic organisms.

Have you heard of a herd of moving moss balls?

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Glacier mice in Breiðamerkurjökull, an outlet glacier in Iceland, in 2005.Ruth Mottram

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-01580-6

If I may hazard a guess, the "fuzz" of glacier mice are evolved "cilia".

Cilia,
What is the function of the cilia?

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Cilia - the Ciliopathy Alliance!

But cilia also propel single cell Paramecium and many other single celled bacteria The motors that drive cilia are microtubules, a self-assembling dynamic biological motor.

Because microtubules are computers which function identically for a large variety of MT functions, their quorum function is very predictable, not just for one individual, but for all related individuals in the hive structure.

Another MT function is "pseudopodia", where sets of microtubules generate a sliding effect in a very coordinated manner, which allows the organism to slide its way forward and backward at will.

Beautiful examples can be found in the pseudopod "slime mold", a single multi nuclei hive organism.

https://www.britannica.com/science/pseudopodial-locomotion

and caterpillars and snakes, which have a highly evolved a special modes of pseudopodia.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/locomotion/Bottom-locomotion

The interesting part is that all these modes of movement are driven by MT motor functions.

I think a strong case can be made that MT are the propulsion motor of glacier mice (moss balls) in a quorum coordinated movement, without the need for conscious motor skills. All the moss balls in the herd react the same way to shared causal information much as hive insects behave via "quorum sensing"​

 

In furterance of motion via Microtubular action (posted previously)

Ciliary and Flagellar Motion

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https://www.ruf.rice.edu/~bioslabs/studies/invertebrates/microtubules.html

 

Anyone who may be interested in the subject of microtubules and the remarkable informational processing properties and abilities of MT, which might suggest an active MT involvement in the higher brain functions.

This thread is based on on-going research and the question of microtubular involvement in consciousness in general and quantum consciousness in specific.

The intent is to introduce research into the various areas of MT functions and how they demonstrably form networks for information transportation. What better candidate than microtubules for studying the neural processes than that provided by the microtubule network inside the neural network, affording the ability to transport a wide range of information necessary for conscious awareness of self and the environment and making up the network required for information processing throughout the entire body (in every cell) of many kinds and being present in numbers ranging into the trillions !

Translation; trillions of bits of information.

This thread is intended as a background library on which to base the proposition that MT are instrumental in the emergent phenomenon of consciousness at various levels of expression and utilities in general, and the possible mechanism that MT employ to form "memory" and "recall".

All informative contributions are welcome, even if they argue against the proposition. I am no idealist, I am a open-minded realist.

The incredible phenomenon of the self-assembling microtubule and its incredible ability for processing extremely sophisticated bits and streams of information, has intrigued me to the exclusion of all other human biology. Just look at the mathematical order this nanoscale processor displays. Its is tantamount to a naturally evolved biological information computing processor and its sheer overwhelming presence in the brain and the body and the amounts of control and transportation of informational data that result in our conscious self-awareness and relationship with the environment.

There is simply nothing biological that can compete with the microtubule as the prime candidate for a biological informational scaffold and for being instrumental in the emergence of conscious awareness in the brain based on the data "input" provided by the microtubules (synapses). Perhaps there may be other factors involved. I wanna know!

I want to know EVERYTHING about microtubules. Can't hurt, can it?

I believe that I adequately explained this several times. Perhaps I was not clear enough.... (sigh).[/quote]

 

What's for sure is none of it has anything to do with the original subject of the thread, namely Hameroff's hypothesis that "quantum processes" taking place within microtubules play a role in consciousness.

I wonder if we can take the heat out of this by renaming the thread "Write4U's Microtubule Thread". Then he can post all the material he wants to about microtubules, whether on slime moulds, Alzheimer's, ciliary motors, mitotic spindles or whatever, without attracting either criticism or interest from anyone else.