Is consciousness to be found in quantum processes in microtubules?

Discussion in 'Pseudoscience' started by Write4U, Sep 8, 2018.

  1. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    18,613
    And on what evidence do you make this vague slander?
    Is anything in that article bad science and false?

    If it is an unreliable site, I'll drop it from my list . But this is the first time I hear something negative from this site.
    Show me a peer review?
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2022
  2. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  3. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    18,613
    As I understand it, consciousness is an excitation of a "field" generated by the brain .

    EMF transmitters and receivers in the brain
    Note that the author generalizes the function of the "neural network" without mentioning the role of microtubules that comprise the billions of EMF transmitters.
    I recall an objection voiced by a poster that if an article does not identify microtubules by name, it may be assumed that microtubules do not play a role in the process. Clearly, this is not a valid argument, because it depends on the level of research and "sufficient narrative information".
    The fact is that when we speak of the neural network we are by physical necessity including "microtubules" as the actual transport mechanism, much as "copper wire" is the transport mechanism in the electrical network of a residence.

    The cemi field theory of consciousness
    .....more
    .........more
    https://academic.oup.com/nc/article/2020/1/niaa016/5909853#227499907

    I hope this is a more reliable source?

    If you do a search for microtubules, you get zero (0) results. I can not imagine how this research facility connected with Oxford University has managed to escape noticing the role microtubules play in the "neural network"

    https://academic.oup.com/nc/search-..._SiteID=5412&SearchSourceType=1&allJournals=1

    Is this a result of fracture due to scientific specialization?
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2022
  4. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  5. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    18,613
    If a "thought" is an excitation in the EM field of the brain, would it be experienced as an internal hologram?

    Holography

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    Two photographs of a single hologram taken from different viewpoints
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holography

    This seems to suggest that human ability for visual triangulation would allow the brain to create an internal hologram which can be experienced as an "observation"

    Does (can) human visual abilities create a holographic image in the brain? Can we simulate it with known holographic photography?

    Holographic augmented reality based on three-dimensional volumetric imaging for a photorealistic scene

    3. Hologram rendering

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!



    https://opg.optica.org/oe/fulltext.cfm?uri=oe-28-24-35972&id=442589
     
  6. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  7. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

    Messages:
    37,189
    Rhetorical questions are all well and good, but I asked you a direct question. Here it is again:

    What exactly do they process? A process involves operating on an input to produce an output. What is the input, output and processing of a microtubule?
    I think that in your rush to spam more random factoids and speculations about microtubules, you lost track of what I asked you.

    If there's an answer buried somewhere in your latest wall of text and pretty pictures, can you please dig it out for me and create a one paragraph summary that attempts to answer the questions I asked you?

    Thanks.
     
  8. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    18,613
    Perhaps in your haste to offer constructive critique you are overlooking the comprehensive answer I gave you.
    "Do you know what neurons process?"

    If you do then I don't need to tell you what microtubules process. Microtubules are the data transport mechanism of neurons, just as a copper wire is the electrical transport system of power cables.

    As to cytoplasm and cytoskeleton, every description of data transport between cells involves microtubules. I do not need to provide a list of specifics.

    ALL electrochemical data-transport throughout the body is processed by microtubules.
    That's what they do! They are the highways along which all data is transported and distributed, from your toes to your brain. Dynein and Kinesin are the trucks that transport the data.

    Microtubules do not need neurons at all. Neurons need microtubules. Neurons are specialised cells, but every single cell of the body communicates with other cells via their microtubules. Microtubules allow cells to communicate whatever they communicate.

    ALL of it! You may know these processes by different names , but all these specialized names involve microtubules.

    ALL CELLS CONTAIN MICROTUBULES AS THEIR INTRACELLULAR AND INTERCELLULAR DATA TRANSPORT PROCESSORS.

    Microtubule Motors and Movements
    Go to:
    Identification of Microtubule Motor Proteins

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!


    Figure 11.45
    Organelle Transport and Intracellular Organization
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK9833/
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2022
  9. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    16,945
    A quick Google will turn up quite bit of controversy about it being a predatory source.

    Whether or not it is, arfa brane has every right to not trust it without independent corroboration.
     
  10. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    18,613
    continued.....

    A special type of data transport may be found in mitosis;

    Separation of Mitotic Chromosomes

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!


    Figure 11.48
    Anaphase A chromosome movement. Chromosomes move toward the spindle poles along the kinetochore microtubules. Chromosome movement is thought to be driven by minus end-directed motor proteins associated with the kinetochore. The action of these motor proteins (more...)
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK9833/
     
  11. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

    Messages:
    37,189
    As far as I can tell, you're yet to give an answer.
    Data transport is not the same thing as data processing.

    Your claim is that microtubules are processors. Please try to support that.

    What is their input? What processing do they do? What outputs do they produce, and how do they differ from the input?
     
  12. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    18,613
    Well we are making progress. At least we come to the admission that microtubules transport data.
    As to what and how microtubules process data, don't ask me, ask these people:

    Information processing in brain microtubules
    Abstract
    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0303264705000912
     
  13. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    18,613
    Continuing with defining microtubule processes.

    Bundles of Brain Microtubules Generate Electrical Oscillations

    Abstract
    ....
    much more detailed description of microtubule processes ................
    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-30453-2
     
  14. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

    Messages:
    37,189
    I'm not sure that they do. What data do they transport? What does the transporting, exactly? How is the data encoded?
    I thought it was your claim that microtubules are data processors. Are you now saying you're not sure about that? Or are you saying you think they are but you don't know why? If it's the latter, what makes you think they are, if you don't have a clue what the mechanism is?
    Ok. Let's see...

    "Models of the mind are based on the idea that neuron microtubules can perform computation. From this point of view, information processing is the fundamental issue for understanding the brain mechanisms that produce consciousness."​

    It sounds like they are assuming that microtubules can perform computation. Then, given the assumption that this is true, they are thinking about the implications for "models of the mind".

    I'm not asking about assumptions, though. I'm asking whether there's any evidence that microtubules perform computations.

    "The cytoskeleton polymers could store and process information through their dynamic coupling mediated by mechanical energy."​

    Could? Well, do they or don't they? You're not sure?

    "We analyze the problem of information transfer and storage in brain microtubules, considering them as a communication channel."​

    Okay. So, I'm interested in the conclusions they reach about his. Is the problem solved, or not? Are microtubules a "communication channel" or aren't they? And what about the processing I asked about? Is there any?

    "We discuss the implications of assuming that consciousness is generated by the subneuronal process."​

    They discuss the implications of an assumption. Okay.

    It sounds like their claims are much more circumscribed than your claims, Write4U. Do you agree?
     
  15. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    18,613
    I think they are because the scientists tell me they are. That is why I quote them lest there be any misunderstanding.
    Who are you talking to? You are reading what they have to say, no? I am merely quoting the language used by bona fide scientists. If you have objections talk to them. I only report on the current state of the science.
    Seems to me they are discussing the various models based on the assumption that the microtubules is the only candidate that meets the minimum requirements of the models.
    No I don't . I believe that the various discussions confirm the initial assumptions. I believe that the quoted passages speak volumes about the electrical and chemical information that microtubules process and transport. I purposely do not clutter the pages with endless equations and calculations. That is why I provide the links to the articles. If you refuse to even look at what they are talking about it is not muy responsibility to repeat verbatim what is already peer reviewed.

    There are 100+ pages with research data from hundreds of scientists and dozens of research facilities. All of them confirming and describing the functionality of microtubules in every Eukaryotic organism on earth.

    You are just acting like the climate change deniers. Refusing to acknowledge what is obvious to any reasonable mind.

    Apparently you have no knowledge of any alternate neural models of any kind.
    Yet it is your claim that the scientist I quote have no clue and are just engaging in speculative assumptions.
    C'mon, I think we are well past that point.

    Perhaps the question of consciousness doesn't interest you. It does to me and I like to share what I believe to be fascinating new discoveries in the thriving scientific field of neural research and the "hard question" of "mind".

    Why are you trying to obstruct this?

    Let me repeat the declarative statement of the current state of science in this area.
    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0303264705000912
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2022
  16. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    18,613
    Microtubular processes.... continued.....

    Microtubules, signalling and abiotic stress
    Abstract
    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23311499/

    and

    Microtubule Dynamics: an interplay of biochemistry and mechanics
    Abstract
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6019280/





     
  17. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    18,613

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!


    Recent information;

    Can quantum effects in the brain explain consciousness?
    New research reveals hints of quantum states in tiny proteins called microtubules inside brain cells. If the results stand up, the idea that consciousness is quantum might come in from the cold.
    PHYSICS 25 August 2021
    By Thomas Lewton
    https://www.newscientist.com/article/2288228-can-quantum-effects-in-the-brain-explain-consciousness/

    and

    Brief exposure to high magnetic fields determines microtubule self-organisation by reaction-diffusion processes
    Abstract
    Similar articles
    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15848281/
     
  18. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    18,613
    And here is a potential proof that microtubules are instrumental in emergent consciousness.

    Avian magnetite-based magnetoreception: a physiologist's perspective
    Hervé Cadiou1,2,* and Peter A. McNaughton1,*

    ABSTRACT
    2. POSSIBLE TRANSDUCTION MECHANISMS TO EXPLAIN MAGNETORECEPTION
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2844004/

    It is clear that microtubules play a critical role in the neural processing and data transportation to the brain. It is no great leap that these processes must stimulate an emergent awareness of internal "differential equations" and if coupled with observation of the environment, allow for conscious orientation and voluntary course correction.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2022
  19. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    18,613
    See post #2349 for just a few few examples. As I recall I have previously posted several quotations and links to microtubule processing functions, in addition to transport via the Dynein and Kinesin motorproteins.
     
  20. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    7,205
  21. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    18,613
    Never looked into that. But let's see

    neu·tri·no, noun
    1. Oxford dictionary
    Neutrinos don't seem to interact with practically anything. Perhaps due to their neutral charge?

    But researching the three subatomic particles of neutrinos, we find:

    About electrons:

    Generation of Electromagnetic Field by Microtubules
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8348406/

    and about tau:
    Tau stabilizes microtubules by binding at the interface between tubulin heterodimers
    https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1504081112#

    But microtubules seem to respond to gravity.

    Cortical microtubules are responsible for gravity resistance in plants
    Abstract
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3001580/

    Microtubules are important enough for 0 gravity experiments.
    Not bad for a nano-scale dipolar coil made from tubulin dimer, that doesn't do much.
     
  22. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    7,205
    do nitrinos effect microtubules ?

    which direction do nitrinos travel in ?

    do they travel in a direction which compliments gravity fields ?

    ultimately
    what role do nitrinos play on a sub atomic level and atomic level (i think thats currently unknown & is being studied)
     
  23. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    18,613
    I haven't a clue. But I think they are not affected by anything except gravity.

    Do neutrinos react with gravity?
     
    RainbowSingularity likes this.

Share This Page