Is consciousness to be found in quantum processes in microtubules?

Discussion in 'Pseudoscience' started by Write4U, Sep 8, 2018.

  1. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    18,526
    In furtherance of reference to:
    As described in post # 2211.

    Call-and-response circuit tells neurons when to grow synapses
    Scientists explains signaling mechanism between astrocyte cells and neurons that regulates synaptic development, Date: October 25, 2021
    https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2021/10/211025172108.htm

    Introduction

    Rapidly accumulating physiological and genetic evidence establishes that the molecular diversity of synapses extends far beyond that envisioned by traditional classification schemes based solely on neurotransmitter identity. For instance, it is now clear that within each neurotransmitter category (e.g., glutamatergic, GABAergic, cholinergic) there is substantial diversity in the expression of many intrinsic synaptic proteins, including neurotransmitter transporters and receptors (Gupta et al., 2000; Häusser et al., 2000;taple et al., 2000;Cherubini and Conti, 2001; Craig and Boudin, 2001; Cull-Candy et al., 2001; Grabowski and Black, 2001;Huang and Bergles, 2004; Mody and Pearce, 2004; Grant, 2006 ). [/quote]
    https://www.cell.com/cms/10.1016/j....3799f533-26b8-40c5-ab6e-85bba89596da/mmc6.mp4

    I find it remarkable that in this in-depth study there is no mention at all of microtubules which illustrates the fractured nature of scientific research. I have seen about five different descriptions of microtubules and their functions, but each study uses a different made-up name as if they were the first to discover the organelle.

    When is a dedicated researcher going to combine all those separate studies and come up with a comprehensive and orderly compendium of the types and roles of microtubules (by any other name)?

    I am too old and uninformed about neural science, but if I can find common denominators, then a knowledgeable student with access to libraries on formal neural research, should be able to put all this together and instead of asking the "hard question", be able to offer a comprehensive overview of "hard facts", that would surely lead to some "informed answers.

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    (A) A volume rendering of 60 serial sections (200 nm each) through the entire cortical depth, including portions of the striatum. While all subsequent experiments and analysis were performed on thinner, 70 nm sections, the thicker sections in this case have allowed us to collect a larger volume and to better visualize the extensive dendrites of pyramidal neurons. Synapsin (magenta), tubulin (blue), and YFP (green). Scale bar, 50 μm.
    (B) A close up of layer 5 pyramidal neurons labeled with YFP.
    (C–H) Zoomed-in view of layers 1 (C), 2/3 (D), 4 (E), 5a (F), 6a (G), and white matter and striatum (H).
    Scale bar for (B)–(H), 10 μm
    .

    See also Movie S1 for a more revealing rendering of the same image volume and Figure S1 for comparison of different synapsin antibodies.

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    Volume rendering from 20 sections, 70 nm each, from an array stained with 11 antibodies (Table S1, data set KDM-SYN-090416).
    (A) Tubulin (blue), synapsin (magenta), YFP (green), and DAPI (gray) fluorescence.
    (B–D) The boxed area in (A). DAPI (gray) and YFP (green). (B) Distribution of all presynaptic boutons as labeled with synapsin (magenta). (C) Distribution of VGluT1 (red), VGluT2 (yellow), and VGAT (cyan) presynaptic boutons. (D) Postsynaptic labels: GluR2 (blue), NMDAR1 (white), and gephyrin (orange) next to synapsin (magenta).

    Scale bar 10 μm. See also Table S1 for sequence of antibody application.
    https://www.cell.com/neuron/fulltext/S0896-6273(10)00766-X?_return
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2021
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  3. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Quantum mind

    Bohm
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mind#Bohm

    Quantum cognition
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_cognition

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    https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2016/11/quantum-brain/506768/

    Markov Chain-Like Quantum Biological Modeling of Mutations, Aging, and Evolution
    by Ivan B. Djordjevic
    Department of Electrical and Computer Engineering, College of Engineering, University of Arizona, 1230 E. Speedway Boulevard, Tucson, AZ 85721, USA

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    https://www.mdpi.com/2075-1729/5/3/1518/htm#[/quote]
     
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  5. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    18,526
    Moved from thread "Unworthy of Life.
    First, the number of microtubules in the brain alone are :

    Modelling Microtubules in the Brain as n-qudit Quantum Hopfield Network and Beyond
    Abstract
    https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1505/1505.00774.pdf

    For much more do a little browsing in this thread and I would like your comments on items that interest you.
     
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  7. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    18,526
    Another piece of the puzzle;

    Helical growth in plant organs: Mechanisms and significance
    (PDF) Helical growth in plant organs: Mechanisms and significance (pdf)

     
  8. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    18,526
    Just ran across another study on possible quantum functions in the neural system, specifically in microtubule networks.

    Emergence of Quantum Coherence in Liquid Water and Aqueous Systems

    Water CDs

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    MIND MAP (credits: ID: 1101108873 Creative Multimedia (Media Innovations)
    https://waterjournal.org/uploads/vol5/supplement/DelGiudice.pdf
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2021
  9. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    18,526
    And in furtherance of possible quantum processes in the brain, this may be of interest.

    Quantum Vacuum Dynamics, Coherence, Superluminal Photons and Hypercomputation in Brain Microtubules Luigi Maxmilian Caligiuri and Takaaki Musha

    I. INTRODUCTION
    https://attivismoquanticoeuropeo.it/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/APPLIED-16.pdf
     
  10. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    18,526
    I bet Microtubules were very instrumental in the creation of these new cells. They form the mitotic spindle that controls cell division.

    Would be interesting to find out.
    This may be related:

    Cross-talk between microtubules and the linker of nucleoskeleton complex plays a critical role in the adipogenesis of human adipose-derived stem cells

    Background
    Methods
    Results
    Conclusions

    https://stemcellres.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13287-018-0836-y
     
  11. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    18,526
    I think this may be of interest to those who like to investigate the role microtubules play in the evolution of sensory awareness and by extension the evolutionary emergence of consciousness.

    The Paramecium Enigma (Do one cell organisms have a form of intelligence?)
    by Mol Smith, (November 2014)

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    Paramecium possess interesting characteristics and behaviour. They are able to detect food in the form of bacteria, algae, and yeasts in the water, swim towards them by using waving cilia (fine hair-like processes) on the surface of the cell membrane, absorb food into a gullet to create food vacuoles, and they are able to produce by both sexual and non-sexual reproduction, depending on environmental conditions.
    The enigma though: what is it that is so mysterious about this tiny life-form?
    So, here's a thing. Paramecium have microtubules too!
    ..."There must be indeed be a complicated control system governing the behaviour of a paramecium - or indeed other one-celled animals like the amoeba - but it is not a nervous system. The system responsible is apparently part of what is referred to the cytoskeleton. As its name suggest, the cytoskeleton provides the framework that holds the cell in shape, but it does more. The cilia themselves are endings of the cytoskeleton fibres, but the cytoskeleton also seems also to contain the control system for the cell, in addition to providing 'conveyor belts' for the transporting of various molecules from one place to another. In short, the cytoskeleton appears to play a role for the single cell, rather like a combination of skeleton, muscle systems, legs, blood circulatory system, and nervous system all rolled into one!It is the cytoskeleton's role as the cell's 'nervous system' that will have the importance here. For our own neurons are themselves single cells, and each neuron has its own cytoskeleton! Does this mean that there is a sense in which each neuron might itself have something akin to its own 'personal nervous system'? This is an intriguing issue, and a number of scientists have been coming round to the view that something of this general nature might actually be true!"
    http://www.microscopy-uk.org.uk/ind...uk.org.uk/mag/artnov14/paramecium-engima.html

    So now we have a little taste of Roger Penrose's perspective on the possible utility of microtubules and the cytoskeleton itself, in addition to the neural network itself.

    Because I have tried to stay away from Penrose and quantum, I never checked to see why Penrose would be interested in microtubules. Now we have a glimpse of his perspective.
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2021
  12. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    18,526
    It appears then that not only do all eukaryotic organisms have microtubules in common, but all individual biological cells have microtubules in common. AFAIK, no non-biological matter has microtubules.

    And does that change the equation of what constitutes living matter vs inanimate matter?

    If all living things have microtubules in common, does that suggest microtubules are a necessary ingredient in the evolution of abiogenesis from inanimate to biological and ultimately animate (living) matter, along with the required conscious relationship to the environment?

    Can anyone offer an alternative, more plausible hypothesis?
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2021
  13. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    18,526
    Perhaps we can fight the virus in a different way.

    Viruses depend on cell division to procreate, which means that if we can prevent the cell from dividing the virus dies.

    Cell division (mitosis) is regulated by microtubule mitotic spindles.

    Are microtubules in mitotic spindle?

    spindle fibers


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    https://www.nature.com/scitable/definition/spindle-fibers-304/

    If we could control the mitotic spindle via some specific command that prevents full mitosis, the viruses become trapped inside the cell and just die. How to remove those cells is another question, but preventing mitosis also prevents the virus from spreading.

    Just a thought on some practical use microtubules might be used for?

    p.s. Who knows, might this also be effective in combatting cancer?
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2022
  14. exchemist Valued Senior Member

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    11,150
    Jesus. More microtubule crap.
     
  15. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    20,574
    Come on, you KNEW this was coming. Not only can microtubules stop COVID, they can even combat cancer! Can world peace be far behind?
     
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  16. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    18,526
    Yes. single celled organisms do not have neurons, but they do have cytoskeletons, i.e. microtubules and that allows them to walk, swim, avoid, memorize, act as rudimentary sensory processors, such as detection of light, warmth, time, balance, symmetry.
    Look it up if you doubt my veracity. There are 100+ pages devoted on the abilities and roles microtubules play in the human cytoskeleton and in ALL Eukaryotic life forms!!!!!
    The rest is posted in my thread on microtubules. Check it out!
    Microtubules control mitosis. When that control is disturbed or stops we get cancer. If we can control mitosis we can control cell division and therefore both reduce cell diseases, but potentially also increase healthy cell division.

    Are you that short-sighted, that these simple potential biological processes escape your brilliant mind?
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2022
  17. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    18,526
    In furtherance of the thread "Questions about COVID" this may explain why microtubules might conceivably be employed to combat viral infections.

    Protoplasmic Cytoskeleton Elements

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    Schematics for three different distribution patterns of cytoskeletal filaments: (A) Microtubules (red) are hollow cylindrical filaments with a diameter of 25 nm, radiating from the cell nucleus. The intracellular fluid-cytosol is a crowded solution of many different types of molecules and structures that fills much of the volume of cells.

    Microtubules:
    Cytoskeletons; Wikipedia
    http://plantcellbiology.masters.grk...-Plant_Protoplasmic_Cytoskeletal_Elements.htm
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2022
  18. exchemist Valued Senior Member

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    11,150
    Indeed. It reminds me of Flanders and Swann's "Wompom" :



    But essentially this is just more internal spam for his microtubule thread, which nobody reads.

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  19. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    18,526
    No It is the only place I am allowed to post anything on microtubules. And that's ok with me .
    Your loss. It is a truly fascinating subject.

    But it allows me to discount your uninformed derogatory comments as based on ignorance, by your own admission.
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2022
  20. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    18,526
    A very interesting review on the state of consciousness science by Sabine Hossenfelder.
     
  21. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    18,526
    Do you realize how stupid this remark is?

    We have consciousness and regardless of how consciousness manifests itself, we do NOT now have world peace!
    So where is the fundamental logic contained in the observation that I would claim emergent consciousness from the microtubule network might solve the question of world peace ?

    If you are going to use "clever" sarcasm, at least try to maintain a level of common sense, if not scientific objectivity.

    As it stands it makes you the fool, not me.
     
  22. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

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    7,045
    obviously its an emotionally based insult
    defining your science as being an emotional plea to collective non action


    from a gun slinger ?
    thats probably high praise

    fyi
    i am quite fascinated by your theory
    "emergent consciousness from the microtubule network"

    it "feels" like it has a vast amount of relevant factual construct to it even if the finer precise point may be potentially un-definable
    soo many of my fringe science notes & side plates are getting lit up by this the more i postulate the ethereal holistic imagery



    imagine quantum computers oscillating at this level
    but with waves of variance running over them like waves in the sea effecting change which defines difference in process function
    it creates randomness variance to define potential frequency shift to potential life creation as a conscious binding attribute
    it lives as long as its powered.
    its personality is complex & varied

    it all makes perfect sense
    pure logic running like rainbow colours all interacting with butterfly effects effecting other tubes & functions

    (you may copy n paste my post to your thread on the subject if you like please could you ?)

    i guess the difference is when you press the brain with your finger on one point
    drugs impact what ever
    does it change the personality ?

    does it change the function as well as the over all aspect ?
    is the action absorbed by the greater over all function ?
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2022
  23. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    7,045
    this is all so far above my pay grade
    & outside my knowledge base

    wave functions
    reflective oscillation frequency ranges
    probability curves
    butterfly effects
    micro organism collective principals
    host verses parasite consciousness concepts


    at what stage does a lot of little actions become 1 big action ?
    etc ...
    this has me excited for next level computing & science
     

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