Is consciousness to be found in quantum processes in microtubules?

Discussion in 'Pseudoscience' started by Write4U, Sep 8, 2018.

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  1. river

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    Because of the physical ; Patterns exist .
     
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  3. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Mathematics as the Science of Patterns -
    https://mathinfo.unistra.fr/website...vol_11_et_suppl/adsc11supplweb_wittmaneng.pdf
     
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  5. river

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    Based on the physical .
     
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  7. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    That applies only to the human observation and symbolized recording of the physical expression. The physical unfolds in accordance to natural (mathematical) guiding equations.
     
  8. river

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    No it is due to Human experience . Not just observation . Of the physical movements of things .

    Show that the mathematics , alone , can guide anything physical . You can't , nobody can . Because it can't .
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2021
  9. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Orderly patterns existed since the beginning. I believe that one of the properties of a living organism is the ability to experience its environment and respond to external stimuli.
    Take the single celled paramecium's ability to navigate via dynamic chemistry where ion flow causes a little chemical machine to turn. The phenomenon of dynamic chemistry is abundant in nature as a result of some causality, like rusting, acid reaction, heat, polymer forming and breaking, but in living organism dynamic chemistry can be used as a survival mechanism. This is already expressed in insects, ancient creatures which are able to use just about every natural trick to survive. A Mayfly with a lifespan of some 30 hrs has the ability to attract a mate from miles away by exuding a pheromone which the male can follow directly to its female source and mate before they both die.
    Causality and causation: What we learn from mathematical dynamic systems theory (Niko Sauer)
    6. CAUSATION We now turn to the question of why states change. In mathematical modelling the mechanism of an evolution process is often captured in an equation of evolution of the form u’(t) = Au(t) + f[t,u(t)] , (6.1) where u’(t) denotes the time rate of change of the function u at time t in phase space; A is an operator which represents the influence of internal agents to change and f the influence of external agents. An equation such as (6.1) should be interpreted as the rate at which the states change is caused by the working of internal agents to which is added the influence of external agents. This, of course presumes that the state space is also a vector space so that entities can be added. Nonetheless, this is the essence of causation – the identification of what we think the causes of change are.[/quote]
    https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/00359191003680091#

    It seems to me that mathematics go deeper than physical interaction and expression. It seems to be a fundamental requirement for anything to be able to become expressed.

    The law of Cause and Effect is a mathematical equation.

    Causality
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causality

    David Bohm writes about this in his book "Wholeness and the Implicate Order", where he proposes that future events are already mathematically "implied" before they can become physically "explicated" from very subtle to gross expression in reality.

    They may not be causal per se, but the Implicate calculates the probability of something specific about to happen before it happens.

    The free pdf which is an asset to any scientific library:

    http://www.gci.org.uk/Documents/DavidBohm-WholenessAndTheImplicateOrder.pdf

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    One of the easiest ways for students to begin thinking about cause-&-effect is through an "input-output" machine.
    This simple graphic organizer can help students understand that the function (machine) processes the input (cause) and results in the output (effect).
    Input-Output machines also provide a great deal of practice solving simple equations and are easily and quickly graded.

    https://sites.google.com/site/teachingthinking2010/cause-effect-in-math

    Note the implied results are already present in the Input prior to the Output.
    The reason that cause and effect is not a random event is due to the mathematical nature of the processing functions.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2021
  10. river

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    Causality and causation: What we learn from mathematical dynamic systems theory (Niko Sauer)
    We learn from mathematics no doubt . But mathematics is always a consequence of the physical . Mathematics can't actually change anything physical unless the mathematics is transforms into something that is real , physical . Otherwise mathematics is just numbers based on the physical .

    Highlighted

    Sure . Based on the mathematics of the physical .
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2021
  11. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Based on the inherent mathematics and expressed in the physical.

    David Bohm's Implicate and Explicate orders.
     
  12. river

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    Disagree

    Based on the inherent physical actions , understood by mathematics . But based in the end , of physical movements of things .

    Which are ?
     
  13. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Reality consists of mathematical interactions of values expressed as physical objects.
    Read David Bohm.
     
  14. river

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    The essence of these mathematical interactions values is physically based .

    Mathematics in and of its self can not produce any thing .
     
  15. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    I never said that. The inherent mathematics imply how physical reality will be expressed. The Implicate (Bohm).
     
  16. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    I believe that the "mirror neural system" in the brain is another "hard fact" that may point to some specific brain region and neurons, and allows a person to share “the same reality” with another merely by observance of body language. It is commonly referred to as “empathy”.

    This experience can be as wonderful and exciting as a religious experience which is fundamentally the same experience, but falsely attributed to some supernatural agency.

    This can be a very powerful emotion, such as 50,000 people experiencing a shared emotion in support of the “home team” during a sporting event or the Olympic games. But can also be a shared experience when lovers share an evening watching the full moon. It allows individuals to "share the same reality" .

    This ability is already present in many animals and the mental phenomenon was discovered during experiments with macaque monkeys. But there are numerous examples of unrelated species helping another species in trouble.

    OTOH, a person with autism typically lack this mirror response and is causal to their inability to relate to others.

    But it appears that "a friend in need is a friend indeed" is pervasive in nature.

    Brookfield Zoo gorilla helps boy who fell into habitat

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    Binti Jua, an 8-year-old female western lowlan gorilla, is shown in an image from television rescuing a toddler who fell into the primate exhibit on Aug. 16, 1996, at Brookfield Zoo (WLS-TV)
    https://www.chicagotribune.com/news...ookfield-zoo-anniversary-20160815-story.html#

    # Mirror neuron system
    DISCOVERY
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2900004/#
     
  17. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    Mostly, I have settled for saying that the scientists and other sources you have quoted have not made a good case for what you/they claim - that consciousness is caused by microtubules.

    It's not up to me to prove you wrong. It's up to you/them to prove you're/they're right.
     
  18. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    And that is exactly what I am doing. But remember no one has proof. I don't claim to have proof.
    My aim is, from available data, to prove that microtubules and related organelles like intermediate and microfilaments (dendrites) form the physical neural substrate (pattern) that allows for the emergence of consciousness, just as the physical substrate pattern of a slime mold allows it to solve mazes, perhaps without being self-aware, but being aware enough to find food in a most efficient way.

    On the role of the plasmodial cytoskeleton in facilitating intelligent behavior in slime mold Physarum polycephalum

    Abstract

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4594612/

    Note that the "cytoskeleton communication networks" is another term for the microtubule and related filaments

    And the ability of flowers to sense the position of the sun and use photosynthesis for energy.

    Plant Cell Architecture: Growth Toward A Light Source
    https://carnegiescience.edu/news/plant-cell-architecture-growth-toward-light-source#

    But then these organisms are pretty low on the evolutionary level of microtubule network complexity, yet they already express extraordinary signs of sentient behavior.

    Is there any known neural data processor organelle that is a "common denominator" of all Eukaryotic organisms involved in electrochemical data processing, other than microtubules?

    If not then that must be the fundamental key, unless we adopt the assumption of an extraneous agency and we land in the world of spiritual woo.

    Microtubules are a shared property of all biological organisms that display some form of sentience. To me, this is irrefutable evidence that warrants extraordinary attention and research. And AFAIK, that is in fact happening. I am just trying to report on the most recent findings.

    I am not alone in this conviction. And the people who are in fact doing the research can claim knowledge and experience in the field of neurology and consciousness. They think the effort is worthwhile.
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2021
  19. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    So is DNA. So are carbon atoms. So is ATP. etc. etc.
     
  20. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    DNA is data, Carbon atoms are biochemical building blocks, ATP is fuel. These are the blue-print and building blocks of organisms. It is true, all these ingredients are necessary but not sufficient.
    Microtubules are dynamic processors and are both necessary and sufficient. MT is required for the processing of all these ingredients.
    MT read and copy the DNA in cell division, provide rigidity to the body, transport the bio-molecules, process light in photosynthesis, and form the transport and distribution of mechanism of electrochemical sensory signals in neurons,
    and are the motors responsible for motility in pseudopodia and flagella.

    MT are the little elves that build and run all of nature's gifts. They are essential for dynamic biological life.
     
  21. Write4U Valued Senior Member

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    Microtubule Mechanics: A Little Flexibility Goes a Long Way
    Author links open overlay panelJames L.McGrath

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    Figure 1. The different shapes of microtubules under pressure. Microtubules experience compressive forces that cause them to buckle. When centering chromosomes in the mitotic spindle (A) or centering the nucleus of an asymmetrically growing fission yeast (B), microtubules are compressed by the forces of polymerization and buckle with long wavelength shapes. In the cytoplasm of interphase cells (C) microtubules occasionally experience more dramatic folds over local spans. New research suggests these short wavelength buckles are evidence of significant myosin-generated compression in the cytoplasm, and that interphase microtubules are likely to be laterally reinforced by their connections to actin and intermediate filaments.

    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0960982206020550

    Question; What is the MT role in the phenomenon of emergent empathy in "mirror neurons"

    Naturalizing Cognition: The Integration of Cognitive Science and Biology
    Mirror Neurons : The Gateway To Empathy
    Posted on March 15, 2017 by milliesc
    By Olivia Bray, 12W

    What are mirror neurons?

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    How do mirror neurons work?

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    https://issciencejournalblog.wordpress.com/2017/03/15/mirror-neurons-the-gateway-to-empathy/

    I believe that much information can be gleaned from studying mirror neural responses as they occur in the same location of the brain and can thus be verified as specific to that brain function. The main problem of brain research as I see it is the fact that each brain has a somewhat different configuration and shows different responses in observation of objects or events.
    However, mirror neurons imitate the exact same brain response in another subject and should be readily comparable.

    Anyway, I have not researched this yet, so more to come later .......

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  22. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    What do microtubules "process"? How do they "process" it?
    Necessary and sufficient for what? Consciousness? Explain how processing in microtubules produces consciousness.
    What? Explain how a microtubule can "read" or "copy" DNA. Does it do that all by itself?
    What? Explain how a microtubule can "process light". What does it "process" light into? How does it do that?
    Microtubules are motors, as well, now?
    Your unevidence faith in the little things makes them approximately equivalent to elves, I agree.
     
  23. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    Weird. That post starts off talking about microtubules, then it moves on to mirror neurons, but nothing in the mirror neuron section mentions microtubules at all. What's special about microtubules in mirror neurons?
     
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