Is agnosticism the only honest position?

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by SolusCado, Nov 18, 2010.

  1. Lori_7 Go to church? I am the church! Registered Senior Member

    i think you're projecting. let's be honest. given what we do know, we can definitely conclude that we don't know much. and you're suggesting that in our ignorance we can judge the creator?

    lay off the cool-aid people...seriously.
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  3. Raithere plagued by infinities Valued Senior Member

    The reasoning here is backwards. The Universe did not originate to sustain life, life arose due to the conditions of the Universe. To say that the Universe had to be a particular way in order to sustain life is like saying the cake pan had to be shaped a certain way to make the cake. You're putting the effect before the cause.

    As to the supposed improbability of such an occurrence, no one can say. With only one example and origin theories remaining hypothetical there is no way to calculate the probability at all.

    I don't know if I'm speaking to myself in this thread or merely being ignored. You're missing two points here. One is that agnosticism is an epistemological position not an ontological one. Two, whether or not you can make such a statement depends upon the definition of God in question.

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  5. birch Valued Senior Member

    i can conclude by the number and propensity toward imperfection and mistakes that even we make and in nature as well as how it operates, that if there was a creator that he's not as stellar as we make it out to be. i am more skeptical, you are more apt to overlook even the obvious. it's very typical to be enamored though because we become desensitized to all the numerous starving, diseased war-torn people in the world, not to even mention animals. it's easier when we are not in that place. yeah, take your own advice and lay off the kool-aid.

    even if there was no creator, i could make that assessment. i can't make an assessment in of what's beyond this though.

    of course, when we look at the night sky, it all looks so lovely and twinkly and gets our wistful imagination going and wondering what awesome things might be. as well, we tend to hope there is better than here even if we don't consciously realize it. how we view it would depend on what we consider the universe or if there is a conscious creator. if there is a conscious creator of this one, i can only go by what goes on here.

    of course, i said it was my opinion. read.
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2010
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  7. Lori_7 Go to church? I am the church! Registered Senior Member

    i don't see anything wrong or imperfect about the way nature works; what i see is a fairly blatant disregard for that by human beings in general. we're the problem.
  8. birch Valued Senior Member

    your statement is typical rhetoric. it's also indicates you don't understand much of nature. humans are a part of nature and are animals.

    you also don't understand your religion well either or the meaning behind a lot of it. the bible speaks of god as perfect from heaven and hell is where the devil or evil is banished to or from hell. jesus christ represents help on earth to deal with a world/universe that is neither totally heaven or totally hell. it's been compromised. the bible even indicates the world is basically the devil's domain. that's why jesus came to die for people's sins and give hope for deliverance or the afterlife/eternal life in heaven if they follow the right path or choose the right values to propogate within themselves and in life.

    your take is not even in alignment with christianity. you seem to think that this place is okay in moral terms. that is your right and your opinion.

    even as an non-theist, one can conceptually understand that the laws of nature are based on a predatorial basis and that it's in many ways in principle a zero sum game because of it. life is based on the extinguishment of another life or at least that's what we know here observing how nature works.

    also, you've repeated several times that you feel or hope that we are a part of something greater and even if unsaid, you assume something cares or that you matter in some way by this connection. this is what keeps you positive but what you aren't understanding is that is what is, that you don't know and because you don't, you can leave it open to the possibility that it is. but it could be that there is no afterlife, there is no god that cares for you and even if there was, it may not be what you think it is or even what you would approve of.

    you may not have a problem with that and there is no reason for anyone to walk around being pessimistic about things we yet know about or we have no control over. we should deal with them as best as possible or try to make changes where we can.
  9. dhcracker Registered Senior Member

    Sorry for the late response I've been really busy, but why would a creator have to be perfect to begin with? Why would God have to be perfect? What if he's just really smart and inherently good natured? What if this was an experiment of his and despite his best intentions we have an imperfect existence?

    Is there a God that is stepping into our everyday affairs and such?? I don't think so, at least not in any type of supernatural way. If you want to really think about what God would realistically be if there was one.. look to us. Supposedly we are made in Gods image, if that's so then eventually we will evolve into something like God so long as we don't become extinct and can find our way to a new sun when ours dies. I think it would take that long to evolve any real super intelligence, if its even possible to figure out inter-stellar travel in the limited time we have to live on this rock....

    I'm just saying why put God in a box, just as nobody can give you the theory of everything nobody can tell you what God is... its something we have to discover together. Though its hard to discover something when you think you already know the answer... lets not be know it all's lets just all get along eh!
  10. SolusCado Registered Senior Member


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    Wow - Talk about resurrections from the dead! I thought this thread was long gone.

    "A creator" doesn't have to be perfect; indeed none of the deities of Egyptian/Greek/Roman mythology were considered perfect. Rather, one of the defining characteristics of the Judeo/Christian God is that He IS "perfect". I think the more interesting question is how one would define perfection, in this context. That seems to be a common point of dissention between "believers" and "non-believers". (i.e. "Non-believers" often feel that the depiction of the Bible's God does not fit their definition of perfection, ergo He isn't perfect, ergo the Bible is wrong.)

    Putting aside the question of how God interacts with us, I think the very question of what it means that we are "made in God's image" is one that has never been satistfactorily answered. As such, I think your supposition that - assuming we are in fact created in "God's image" - we would eventually evolve into something like God is predicated on a very specific interpretation. I wouldn't argue with your conclusions based on your assumptions; but I would argue with your assumptions.

    I agree 100%!

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