Is Abortion Murder?

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by Bowser, Aug 22, 2015.

?

I Believe Abortion Is...

  1. Murder

    5 vote(s)
    14.7%

  2. A Woman's Choice

    25 vote(s)
    73.5%

  3. A Crude Form of Birth Control

    6 vote(s)
    17.6%

  4. Unfortunate but Often Necessary

    18 vote(s)
    52.9%
Multiple votes are allowed.
Page 2 of 43
  1. James R

    James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

    Messages:
    39,421
    Ah, the abortion debate again. Is it that time of year?

    Here's the argument:
    1. Deliberately killing an innocent person is wrong and is called murder.
    2. A foetus is a person from the time of conception.
    3. Therefore, killing a foetus is murder.

    This argument can be attacked on a number of grounds. Often, the right-to-choose argument is based on attacking point 2. For example, one can argue about what is a person, and about when personhood starts and whether a foetus fits either criterion. It is also possible to query assumption 1. Is it really always wrong to kill an innocent person? What if other interests are at stake (e.g. the mother's various interests)? In that case, you have to balance two lives, not just worry about one.

    You did not reply to Bells' question above, and I think that's important for you to answer: what alternative do you propose?

    Do you think all life is important, or only human life? Do you eat meat, for example? If so, is that ok because it isn't human life? And if so, what makes human life special? Consciousness? No, because non-human animals are conscious. Intelligence perhaps? Then maybe we need to ask whether a human foetus has the requisite intelligence. Or some other reason.

    Tell me why (human) life is of all importance to you, Bowser.

    One of the most dangerous things a woman can do for her own health is to get pregnant, statistically speaking.

    Is it really the same? Would you consider the death of a close friend to be equivalent to aborting a 3-week old foetus? Morally? Emotionally? What if somebody shot your best friend? Would that be morally equivalent to a woman aborting her pregnancy?

    A potential person is not a person.

    If I buy a lottery ticket, I'm a potential lottery winner. That doesn't mean I have the right to claim the money before the draw happens. You're making an argument that more or less precisely parallels the lottery situation.

    And, as Beer w/straw asked, how far back are you going to go with your "potential person" thing? Is a potential conception something that nobody should be allowed to interfere with, thus making contraception wrong? Is a woman evil when she menstruates without fertilising her ovum, because she has foregone the creation of a potential person (often deliberately)? Is a man evil when he masterbates and loses some of his precious sperm, which are alive and which are all potential people, given the appropriate circumstances?

    Approximately one in every three conceptions ends in early spontaneous abortion, so you could say that a fertilised egg is viable on conception in about two-thirds of cases. Fertilisation itself is actually quite rare in any given act of sexual intercourse, so viable sperm and viable ovum don't necessarily produce a viable foetus.

    So, take a random woman who is pregnant. Let's say she is 3 weeks pregnant. One morning, she goes to the abortion clinic and has an abortion. The next day, while attempting to hold up a convenience store at gunpoint she shoots your best friend.

    Suppose you are a judge sentencing this woman for the two murders (just the murders, not any other associated crimes). Would you be inclined to give her equal sentences for shooting your friend and for aborting her foetus? Say 25 years to life for each? Because according to you the foetal murder is "no different that eliminating a fully developed individual."

    This isn't what you really think, is it?

    In fact, on the basis of "potential", it could be argued that killing the foetus is the more significant crime of the two, because who knows what sort of person the foetus may have been? That foetus could have gone on to cure cancer or invent a warp drive or something, for all we know. And your friend? Well, if he hasn't done either of those things yet, it seems unlikely. So, how about 25 years for killing your friend and the death penalty for the abortion?

    But wait! You can't support the death penalty, because "a life ... is of all importance". Even the life of a mass murderer like this woman.
     
    James R, Aug 23, 2015
    #21

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  3. Kristoffer

    Kristoffer Giant Hyrax Valued Senior Member

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    Not to nitpick (I'll do it anyway

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    ), but the FBI define mass murder as at least 4 kills with no cooling off period, so your hypothetical woman is only a double murderer.
     
    Kristoffer, Aug 23, 2015
    #22

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  5. Bowser

    Bowser Namaste Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
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    Some say yes while others say no. I think it might possibly be the the oldest and most effective method of birth control.
     
    Bowser, Aug 23, 2015
    #23

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  7. sculptor

    sculptor Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    8,475
    abortion is the leading cause of death in the United States
    Speak about life expectancy (for a fetus): Here are 21.9% who ain't gonna survive through old age. Plug them into the claims for increased life expectancy through modern science and medicine, and the picture changes radically.
    Are we willing ourselves into extinction?

    "murder" is the tricky part:
    The common definition includes "unlawful"..........

    morality vs legality

    Is abortion morally wrong?
     
    sculptor, Aug 23, 2015
    #24
  8. Dr_Toad

    Dr_Toad It's green! Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,527
    Two things for Bowser:

    1] Why do you use "Life is Fatal" as your tag?

    2] Most of the reactionaries shouting about the sanctity of life in the womb don't give a hot shit what happens to that life after birth. They want to cut funding for clinics, social safety nets, and services for the poor. They want that child in the for-profit prison system we have in this fucked-up country as soon as they're able to be charged with an 'adult' crime. Follow the money, not the breast-beating in the name of morality.
     
    Dr_Toad, Aug 23, 2015
    #25
  9. Bowser

    Bowser Namaste Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    8,828
    By becoming pregnant a woman becomes capable and responsible for the life she holds.


    That depends on the condition and the medical interventions available.


    I would place higher value on that of a person than, say, that of a cow.

    There are billions of people with whom I am not intimate, Does that make their lives any less valuable?

    Yet we all start the same way. What a loss if any of us should have been denied the opportunity to evolve.

    That's a bad analogy.

    No, I don't have a problem with responsible contraception.

    What were the penalties before abortion was legal? How was such a thing deliberated. Also, what if the mother of my best friend had the ability to go back in time and have an abortion, would that be murder?
     
    Bowser, Aug 23, 2015
    #26
  10. Bowser

    Bowser Namaste Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    8,828
    Because each of us will, eventually, die. Just a reminder that every breath we take is precious.

    I would disagree with that assumption. Of course we want the best for every child. My daughter is entering her final year of high school and preparing for college. I'm giving serious thought to the possibility of fostering or adopting a child. My only concern is my age--I'm in my mid 50's.
     
    Bowser, Aug 23, 2015
    #27
  11. Dr_Toad

    Dr_Toad It's green! Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,527
    I should have qualified that last some. Most politicians shouting about it....
     
    Dr_Toad, Aug 23, 2015
    #28
  12. Bowser

    Bowser Namaste Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    8,828
    Politicians will side with whatever gives them the most votes--Democrat or Republican. Two sides of the same coin. Power and money are their motives, regardless of what they might say on any issue.
     
    Bowser, Aug 23, 2015
    #29
  13. Spellbound

    Spellbound Banned Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,623
    Abortion is wrong. In the case of rape give away the child.
     
    Spellbound, Aug 23, 2015
    #30
  14. Beer w/Straw

    Beer w/Straw Transcendental Ignorance! Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
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    One can't, without qualification, say it is unequivocally wrong unless one lives in a utopia.
     
    Beer w/Straw, Aug 23, 2015
    #31
  15. Bowser

    Bowser Namaste Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
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    Well, it's very clear to me. Just as I can say murder is unequivocally wrong, I can extend that same logic to those in the womb.
     
    Bowser, Aug 23, 2015
    #32
  16. Beer w/Straw

    Beer w/Straw Transcendental Ignorance! Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    6,549
    Well, you say it is murder and I have to say I'm undecided. As it is generally I topic I don't discuss cause it makes an unpleasant conversation.
     
    Beer w/Straw, Aug 23, 2015
    #33
  17. Bowser

    Bowser Namaste Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    8,828
    But it's taking place every day. What does it say for our society when we choose to destroy life rather than nurture it?
     
    Bowser, Aug 23, 2015
    #34
  18. Beer w/Straw

    Beer w/Straw Transcendental Ignorance! Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    6,549
    It says we don't live in a utopia.
     
    Beer w/Straw, Aug 23, 2015
    #35
  19. iceaura

    iceaura Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    30,994
    These are false statements. You are pretending to hold beliefs that are inconsistent.
    No, you can't. That's the problem. Why are you pretending to do that?
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2015
    iceaura, Aug 23, 2015
    #36
  20. Bowser

    Bowser Namaste Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    8,828
    Why can't I? If I recognize human life both in and out of the womb, why can't I place value on both?
     
    Bowser, Aug 23, 2015
    #37
  21. Bowser

    Bowser Namaste Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    8,828
    Must we be a perfect society to appreciate the value of life?
     
    Bowser, Aug 23, 2015
    #38
  22. sculptor

    sculptor Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    8,475
     
    sculptor, Aug 23, 2015
    #39
  23. Beer w/Straw

    Beer w/Straw Transcendental Ignorance! Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    6,549
    For you, yeah. My powers, however, allow me to predict the future. And I know that if one particular fetus wasn't aborted that person would have grown up and caused a nuclear apocalypse destroying all life on Earth.

    I was happy for the abortion.
     
    Beer w/Straw, Aug 23, 2015
    #40
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