Is Abortion Murder?

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by Bowser, Aug 22, 2015.


I Believe Abortion Is...

  1. Murder

    5 vote(s)
  2. A Woman's Choice

    25 vote(s)
  3. A Crude Form of Birth Control

    6 vote(s)
  4. Unfortunate but Often Necessary

    18 vote(s)
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. Bowser Namaste Valued Senior Member

    I have no doubt that this has been posted once, twice...many times before. Nonetheless, it's an issue that I have strong feelings for. In my mind, abortion is murder, even in cases of rape. While I wouldn't want to see a woman turn to a back-alley abortionist, I still feel that it's wrong to support legal abortions.
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  3. Bells Staff Member

    So what do you propose instead?

    You know, for the rape victim who finds herself pregnant. You don't want to see her to turn to a back alley abortionist and you feel it is wrong to support legal abortions. What options to do propose for her, if she does not want to carry and then have her rapist's baby? Especially in a case of rape, where she is forced to begin with. How would you handle such a situation?

    And how about if her life was in danger and to continue with the pregnancy would result in her death? What options would you offer the pregnant woman that would not entail 'murdering' the foetus?

    Would you support early birth, even before it is viable, which would amount to killing the baby or risking its life anyway. So that would be out, because that would be 'murder'.
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  5. Daecon Kiwi fruit Valued Senior Member

    Don't have one, then.
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  7. sculptor Valued Senior Member

    morality vs legality
    Bowser, you didn't vote.

    If I could, I'd change my vote to "all of the above".
  8. Bowser Namaste Valued Senior Member

    I think a life, no matter how it was conceived, is of all importance. As far as the woman's life being in danger, I've been told that that is an argument of little validity, more so when we consider the present advances in medicine. I mentioned rape because that, too, is a popular argument, though rape accounts for less than 1% of all abortions. But I thought I should put it on the table nonetheless.

    Personally, I see no alternative--either it is legal or it's not legal. There are more than a million abortions each year. That's disturbing.
  9. Daecon Kiwi fruit Valued Senior Member

    What about after they're born? Who do you propose looks after the unwanted babies?
  10. Bells Staff Member

    In 2012, a pregnant 16 year old girl was denied treatment or an abortion when she was diagnosed with cancer. She was denied life saving treatment for weeks, for fear that said treatment would terminate her pregnancy. She was also denied the right to an abortion so that she could start life saving treatment. She was 9 weeks pregnant when she was diagnosed. She died.

    In 2010, a 27 year old woman, a mother to a 10 year old girl, had to draw international attention and pleas from 11 member states of the UN to grant her life saving cancer treatment, after doctors refused to treat her or allow her to have an abortion for her 10 week long pregnancy for fear of being prosecuted by laws that banned all abortions, no exceptions.

    In 2012, a 31 year old woman miscarried in Ireland, where at that time, all abortions were illegal. Her foetus still had a heartbeat, despite the fact that it was a clear abortion. She was denied all treatment, because what is naturally and normally classified as a medical procedure after a miscarriage, would, under Ireland's laws, have classified as an "abortion". As the miscarriage caused an infection, which entered her blood stream, and after much protest, she was granted an "abortion". She died a few days later because said treatment came too late.

    And if you think her case cannot happen in the US? Think again.

    Because the fetus was still alive, they wouldn't intervene. And she was hemorrhaging, and they called me and wanted to transport her, and I said, “It sounds like she's unstable, and it sounds like you need to take care of her there.” And I was on a recorded line, I reported them as an EMTALA [Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act] violation. And the physician [said], “This isn't something that we can take care of.” And I [said], “Well, if I don't accept her, what are you going to do with her?” [He answered], “We'll put her on a floor [i.e., admit her to a bed in the hospital instead of keeping her in the emergency room]; we'll transfuse her as much as we can, and we'll just wait till the fetus dies.”


    I'll never forget this; it was awful—I had one of my partners accept this patient at 19 weeks. The pregnancy was in the vagina. It was over… . And so he takes this patient and transferred her to [our] tertiary medical center, which I was just livid about, and, you know, “we're going to save the pregnancy.” So of course, I'm on call when she gets septic, and she's septic to the point that I'm pushing pressors on labor and delivery trying to keep her blood pressure up, and I have her on a cooling blanket because she's 106 degrees. And I needed to get everything out. And so I put the ultrasound machine on and there was still a heartbeat, and [the ethics committee] wouldn't let me because there was still a heartbeat. This woman is dying before our eyes. I went in to examine her, and I was able to find the umbilical cord through the membranes and just snapped the umbilical cord and so that I could put the ultrasound—“Oh look. No heartbeat. Let's go.” She was so sick she was in the [intensive care unit] for about 10 days and very nearly died… . She was in DIC [disseminated intravascular coagulopathy]… . Her bleeding was so bad that the sclera, the white of her eyes, were red, filled with blood… . And I said, “I just can't do this. I can't put myself behind this. This is not worth it to me.” That's why I left.

    This is what happens when abortion is banned without exception. Do you think this is acceptable? Look, I could go on and on and list you with case after case to show just how wrong you are that it is an argument of little validity. Women die due to childbirth and pregnancy (even leaving things like cancer out of the equation) every year in the US. If a woman's life is in danger, do you think it is acceptable to force her to continue with a pregnancy that could result in her death?

    Do you have any alternative that would prevent this sort of thing from happening?

    Do you think it is acceptable to force a woman to remain pregnant to the man who raped her?

    Could you cite where you got that figure from?

    Because here is what the CDC have on file:

    In 2011, 730,322 legal induced abortions were reported to CDC from 49 reporting areas. The abortion rate was 13.9 abortions per 1,000 women aged 15–44 years and the abortion ratio was 219 abortions per 1,000 live births.

    Compared with 2010, the total number and rate of reported abortions for 2011 decreased 5%, and the abortion ratio decreased 4%. Additionally, from 2002 to 2011 the number, rate, and ratio of reported abortions decreased 13%, 14%, and 12%, respectively. The large decreases in the total number, rate, and ratio of reported abortions from 2010 to 2011, in combination with decreases that occurred during 2008–2010, resulted in historic lows for all three measures of abortion.
    Dr_Toad likes this.
  11. billvon Valued Senior Member


    Next question?
  12. Bowser Namaste Valued Senior Member

    People in the US are paying for the privilege to be parents.
  13. Bowser Namaste Valued Senior Member

    Would you feel the same if someone you know just stopped existing? That;s pretty much what abortion is, a termination of life.
  14. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    It isn't very likely that you really think first trimester abortion is murder. You say that, but so do thousands of other people who clearly demonstrate that they don't, really. Why should we believe you are different from the almost universal majority of prolifers?
  15. Bowser Namaste Valued Senior Member

    Certainly I would not sacrifice the mother's life if there was no other alternative; however, with today's medicine, it seems a rare circumstance that there would be no alternatives. Do you have statistics that show the percentage of abortions needed because of health risks? As for citation on my numbers, it was simply a Google search. My apologies. Even if we ignore my citation, does 730,322 abortions make it any less a tragedy?
  16. Bowser Namaste Valued Senior Member

    I see potential life in what takes root. To me it could be a potential person. Where should I draw the line?
    Beer w/Straw likes this.
  17. Daecon Kiwi fruit Valued Senior Member

    How about at 23 weeks, after the foetus is independently viable?
  18. Bowser Namaste Valued Senior Member

    I have about 7% battery, so I'll make this short. Isn't it viable upon conception. Life to me is cellular division. Whar does "independently viable" mean to you?
  19. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    I would recommend drawing a line somewhere before you find yourself using words like "murder" to describe the elimination of "potential life". Because it sounds like you have another agenda entirely, when you launch a muddle like that.

    I doubt that. I'll bet that the common incineration of living early miscarriages in the same oven as excised living melanomas and other medical waste, standard hospital practice since hospitals installed incinerators, doesn't bother you a bit and never has.
  20. Bowser Namaste Valued Senior Member

    I suppose I do have an agenda: I believe abortion is murder; therefore, it is wrong. I see it no different than eliminating a fully developed individual. Again, the potential in the simplest form of human life is huge. You, I, anyone here is proof of that. When you abort, you take away that potential--a life.

    How they discard human remains is not my concern. My personal preference is cremation, so I don't have a problem with their methods..
  21. Bells Staff Member

    As the links I provided earlier explained, hundreds of women in the US alone die every year due to pregnancy and child birth complications, and that is without cancer being a factor.

    Around the world, that figure is even higher. Horrifically much higher.

    How can women’s lives be saved?
    Most maternal deaths are preventable, as the health-care solutions to prevent or manage complications are well known. All women need access to antenatal care in pregnancy, skilled care during childbirth, and care and support in the weeks after childbirth. It is particularly important that all births are attended by skilled health professionals, as timely management and treatment can make the difference between life and death.

    Severe bleeding after birth can kill a healthy woman within hours if she is unattended. Injecting oxytocin immediately after childbirth effectively reduces the risk of bleeding.

    Infection after childbirth can be eliminated if good hygiene is practiced and if early signs of infection are recognized and treated in a timely manner.

    Pre-eclampsia should be detected and appropriately managed before the onset of convulsions (eclampsia) and other life-threatening complications. Administering drugs such as magnesium sulfate for pre-eclampsia can lower a woman’s risk of developing eclampsia.

    To avoid maternal deaths, it is also vital to prevent unwanted and too-early pregnancies. All women, including adolescents, need access to contraception, safe abortion services to the full extent of the law, and quality post-abortion care.

    Access to safe and legal abortions is essential to maternal health.

    Doctors in the US have said that they can and do save lives and they are essential to maternal and women's health services. Even leaving cancer out of the equation.

    The last figure I was able to find was 2.8% in the US were medically necessary from figures in 1998 [in the link just above]. Is that an acceptable figure for you? The potential of an extra 2.8% of women dying because of lack of ability to access a safe and legal abortion?

    I would also see forcing those women to carry through with unwanted pregnancies as being as much of a tragedy with lasting impacts.

    Most abortions occur in the first trimester. More often then not, women naturally abort without even realising she was even pregnant. So each time she has her period, she has just eliminated the 'potential life'. Has she committed murder each month?

    When do you come to know the foetus? For example, you know someone for however many years. Now compare that to a 10 week old foetus, you have never met and you only found out was there 3 weeks prior to that. Do you know them? Know their tastes, likes and dislikes? What they look like, what they are like? Their personality? Who do you actually know?

    You have yet to provide the mother's life with the same rousing speech.

    What about her rights and her life?

    If a woman's life is at risk, which do you choose? Hers? Or the potential for life she has in her womb?

    For all the talk about the potential life, very little is said about the actual life that is the mother's. What of her?

    How do you feel about contraception?

    Is protecting the possibility to create life also better?

    Or the morning after pill? Do you think using that after unprotected sex and/or rape, for example, acceptable? Since that stops the fertilised egg from implanting in the uterus, and thus, preventing any potential life with its cell division from attaching itself to her womb.
  22. Kristoffer Giant Hyrax Valued Senior Member

    Is it moral to force ones morality unto others? In my mind, no.

    Risking lives to "protect" potential lives seems backwards to me.

    As billvon said to your question about whether abortion was murder
    Forcing a woman to go through with a pregnancy that'll kill her, though, is murder.
  23. Beer w/Straw Transcendental Ignorance! Valued Senior Member


    Is masturbation a sin?

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