# Iraq and Afghanistan .

Discussion in 'World Events' started by mike47, Nov 25, 2009.

1. ### SyzygysAs a mother, I am telling youValued Senior Member

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Alright, I will be kind, history lesson of the Afghan pipeline:

http://www.alternet.org/story/12525

It is rather long, so just the begining:

"Where the "Great Game" in Afghanistan was once about czars and commissars seeking access to the warm water ports of the Persian Gulf, today it is about laying oil and gas pipelines via the untapped petroleum reserves of Central Asia, a region previously dominated by the former Soviet Union, with strong influence from Iran and Pakistan. Studies have placed the total worth of oil and gas reserves in the Central Asian republics at between $3 and$6 trillion.

Who has access to that vast sea of oil? Right now the only existing export routes from the Caspian Basin lead through Russia. U.S. oil companies have longed dreamed of their own pipeline routes that will give them control of the oil and gas resources of the Caspian Sea. Likewise, the U.S. government also wants to dominate Central Asian oil in order to reduce dependency on resources from the Persian/Arabian Gulf, which it cannot control. Thus the U.S. is poised to challenge Russian hegemony in a new version of the "Great Game."

Construction of oil and natural gas export pipelines through Afghanistan was under serious consideration during the Clinton years. In 1996, Unocal -- one of the world's leading energy resource and project development companies -- won a contract to build a 1,005-mile oil pipeline in order to exploit the vast Turkmenistan natural gas fields in Duletabad. The pipeline would extend through Afghanistan and Pakistan, terminating in Multan, near the India border."

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"However, from all records, relationships became strained. The Taliban had demanded that the U.S. should also reconstruct Afghanistan's infrastructure and that the pipeline be open for local consumption. Instead, the U.S. wanted a closed pipeline pumping gas for export only and was not interested in helping to rebuild the country.

In turn, the U.S. threatened the Taliban during the negotiations. The directive of "we'll either carpet you in gold or carpet you in bombs" was bantered about in the press to underscore the emerging willfulness of the U.S." <<<<< summer of 2001

3. ### superstring01Moderator

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I'm reading the piece Syz. You do realize that there's a difference between investigative journalism and opinion pieces? Not one single claim in the linked article provides names of officials interviewed or documents seen. Do you know why? Simple: IT'S AN OPINION PIECE. Which, while interesting, isn't really proof. I mean, I can just as easily find opinion pieces claiming the opposite, couldn't I? But it really wouldn't mean much.

~String

5. ### SyzygysAs a mother, I am telling youValued Senior Member

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Only the oil pipe and because they realized the oil was actually in very bad quality, not worthy of the transfer.

What do you want me to do? Post sercet government memos where they acknowledge it? They are SECRET for a reason, you know. On the other hand just use your BRAIN and you will see that.

Or maybe not...

7. ### superstring01Moderator

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I want you to admit that you're speculating--which is fine, and should merely be labeled as such--and have provided, heretofore, nothing beyond an opinion piece to support your lofty claims.

~String

8. ### SyzygysAs a mother, I am telling youValued Senior Member

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No. But I do realize the difference between facts and opinions. Was there a meeting between the Taliban and Texas oil executives in the summer of 2001? Yes, a fact.
Was there a disagreement and basicly a US government threat? Yes.

Also in real life we don't always get smoking guns just lots of small facts and common sense conclusions.

The Afghan pipeline explain PERFECTLY the US stubborn occupation in Afghanistan. Trying to fight ghost terrorists doesn't...

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10. ### superstring01Moderator

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How do you know this? Have you see the documents? While I don't expect to see every document, I want to know how the researcher came across his information too. It's clalled "Peer Review" and it's the standard in the industry.

Where? When? Who made the threat?

Duh, but when YOU make claims Syz, you're required to support those claims with something concrete. You haven't. You've connected dots which suit your end means and have trumpeted them as something credible, which they are not.

Well, there are scores of far more credible--even Anti-US government--journalists who've been there, sifted through papers, interviewed officials, whoe've come to very different conclusions than you. Pick up any number of books on the subjects.

"The Looming Tower"
"Ghost Wars"
"The Cell"

They're pretty good starts. All of them were written by seasoned jornalists; two by notably anti-American men.

When you've done even an ounce of legwork on the subject beyond google research, let me know. Your claims will be credible.

And then, if you really wanna get crazy, just read the 9/11 Report.

~String

11. ### StrawDogdisseminated primatemaiaValued Senior Member

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Do you consider the opinion of long standing civilian representative Matthew Hoh, with his years of embedded experience in the region, and who resigned on the grounds of his sincere and substantial "doubts" an opinion piece?

He expresses grave doubts not on "how" the US is pursuing the war in Afghanistan, but on "why" and to "what end". transcript

Last edited: Dec 3, 2009
12. ### SyzygysAs a mother, I am telling youValued Senior Member

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1. Just because something at the time is a SPECULATION that doesn't mean it is not TRUE. Scientists speculated for 100s of years that the Earth was round before it was proven beyond doubt.

2. Let me give you a historical analogy about speculation and documentation. Ladies and gentlemen, please enter my Timemachine:

The year is 1944 and String and Syz are sitting in a London coffe house talking about German plans about the Jews.

Syz: I think they decided to exterminate the whole nationality/religion.
String: Hogwash, where do you get such an idea?

Syz: Well, all evidence show that way. Jews are disappearing in so called workcamps and noone ever comes back alive.
String: I don't believe it, can you show me documentation of it? Maybe some of them die because of the hardness, but nothing evil is going on.

Syz: There was a secret conference at Wannsee in 1942, where they probably made the decission about the Jews' extermination.
String: Were you there? How do you know? Did you see any documents signed by Hitler or anyone higher ranked nazis?

Syz: String, it was a SECRET meeting, what do you want me to do?
String: This whole concept is just SPECULATION, until I see a document.You are crazy. You might even going to call this conspiracy Endlosung...

Well, guess whom was proven correct by TIME, documentation or not?

For extra credit:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wannsee_Conference

Last edited: Dec 3, 2009
13. ### SyzygysAs a mother, I am telling youValued Senior Member

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Oh, my motto about current history and politics is:

You believe what you want, I know what I do...

14. ### mike47BannedBanned

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You are right and I agree with you .
Add to that all the military bases which represent another dominance of stealing anything they wish .

.

15. ### RickyHValued Senior Member

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Seriously, I doubt you're in possession of classified material. If you did have classified material I'd question two things.

1. How would you know it's secret?
2. Who gave you, or how did you aquire these documents?

Forgive me if I'm off my rocker though Syz. I've never had a problem with your posts in the past but just saying your verifying material is secret sounds awfuly fishy.

16. ### countezeroRegistered Senior Member

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5,590
Oh, come on String.

Recruiters cannot get anyone to sign up. And defense spending in the US has always been big, war or peace-time. The men and women in the military who went there because they had no other options, itself a stereotype, also equally applies in peace.

The one major area of concern is the proliferation of private security contractors. What do they do when their business dries up in the two wars?

And if Iraq was about oil, how come we're not seeing any?

You really think there are no terrorists in Central Asia? Reality suggests otherwise. Meanwhile, in trumpeting the pipeline theories Leftists so love, you're making yourself look even more ridiculous. The idea for those pipelines was abandoned years ago. Efforts to restart them, efforts which would benefit Afghans, have largely failed. If the US really wanted oil and natural gas, there are plenty of other, less dangerous places to get them. Oh, and how you account for 9/11? Did we just get lucky and get hit by the country we wanted to occupy for resources?

Last edited: Dec 4, 2009

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18. ### SyzygysAs a mother, I am telling youValued Senior Member

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Because Dick, the Cheney blocked the release of the information of his meeting with Ken Lay and other executives. It is a fact.

I never said I have any, but obviously there must be some kind of record of that meeting.

By the way the analogy with Wannsee stands, because the nazis also made sure nothing got recorded or whatever was, it was a pretty good secret...

19. ### SyzygysAs a mother, I am telling youValued Senior Member

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You are on my ignore, but I made an exception out of curiosity.

Nobody said there weren't, but that isn't the main reason. We could have just blasted a few dozens camps and that would have been the end of it. As long as the underlying reason exists, there will always be terrorists.

Documentation?

It is just postponed.

" Due to increasing instability, the project has essentially stalled; construction of the Turkmen part was supposed to start in 2006, but the overall feasibility is questionable since the southern part of the Afghan section runs through territory which continues to be under de facto Taliban control."

This pretty much explains it. But hey guys, let's see if time will prove me right. If in 2 years the country gets stabilized I bet there will be a sudden rush to build those pipelines.

...and I don't care who thinks the same as I do. Logic and facts are on my side....

WRONG again, as Ricky proved it above. They are actually cutting back on incentives, because there are so many people willing to have a job. Thanks to the recession and less casualties...

So if you don't mind I will keep ignoring you in the future. Good luck learning history!

Last edited: Dec 4, 2009
20. ### RickyHValued Senior Member

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:bugeye:

You'd believe that? I wouldn't look too much into conspiracies Syz. If you do however, I wouldn't post it. I also wouldn't say it's obvious to anyone.

21. ### SyzygysAs a mother, I am telling youValued Senior Member

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Conspiracy is just a word, that usually has a negative connoctation, although it shouldn't be always the case...

Let's enter my Timemachine, one more time:

The year is 1630, you are with Galileo in Italy and you guys are working on proving the geocentric theory of the Solar system. Since it is against the popular view of the world, the Vatican calls you conspiracists, nevertheless you happen to be CORRECT.

And yes, you and Galileo think that it is OBVIOUS that the Earth goes around the Sun.

In plain: you CONSPIRING scientist are OBVIOUSLY CORRECT. Who would have thought?

Last edited: Dec 4, 2009
22. ### RickyHValued Senior Member

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1,317
Nah, I'm saying it's a conspiracy to be nice. It's absolutely incorrect. It holds no water, and for more reasons then one makes no sense.

Others have stated this, I won't beat a dead horse. But if you've ever talked to an Afghani, or a member(s) of the Taliban you'd have a decent idea of what is going on. Besides, it'd cost the government more money to run military bases in afghanistan then they'd make off of oil. Believe it or not.

23. ### SyzygysAs a mother, I am telling youValued Senior Member

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...and these are not arguments just opinions, without some kind of logical or factual back up.

Why don't you share it with us?

What is the cost of printing a 100 dollar bill? About 50 cents or so. Not to mention the Chinese and other foreigners financing the US debt. On the other hand, oil and gas actually can be used for making energy.