Internet traffic monitored - Orwellian nightmare

It may interest you guys to find out that the US is not the only country in the world with a constitution. Your also not the only democracy on the planet either. Do you really think democratic governments will spend so much money just to read peoples email? I don`t think so, they will however spend great amounts of cash on spying on foreign industry and technological research. Which I have say is of positive benefit to us all.

 

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Mike:

My remarks were addressed solely to U.S. citizens. Since I'm not familiar with any other countries' constitutions, I do not know what they have to say about fundamental human rights. But since U.S. seems to be one of the major players in Echelon, I think my point is very valid and relevant.

Violation of privacy, no matter how benign the reasons, is an inexcusable crime. The only time it might be justified is if there are ample reasons to suspect that a person/persons are involved in something sinister of potential harm to others (or are trying to cover up their suspected past misdeeds). But even for those cases, in U.S. we require a court order to enable the regulatory agency in question to target those specific individuals in question.

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I am; therefore I think.

 

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While we all cry about this Echelon Invasion of our privacy, we fail to see the more subtle invasion of our privacy exacerbated by the net - namely e-commerce web sites.

We now have the "privilege" of shopping online, but at the cost of some personal information.

What most people do not even realize is how wide open all their personal profile information is to anyone who can name a price. Who cares whether someone can read email from a bogus hotmail account, when companies like Amazon.com and others are quietly amassing huge data repositories filled with consumer information which they plan to sell at some point in the future.

This is a little bit more of a concern than some simple packet-sniffing enterprise run by a bunch of combat-starved military types.

[This message has been edited by Skepticus (edited June 08, 1999).]

 

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I think the main point of all this discussion is:
What are we going to do about it?

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The Truth is Out There

 

I have to agree with the statements Boris made. This country was initially settled by people who wanted freedom and "rights." While trying to establish their laws, these people denied others (Africans and Indians)those very same rights. It was a mistake that was woven into the very fabric of this "great nation" of ours (via the constitution).

The Internet is the discovery of a new frontier (all over again). We simply cannot allow the invasion of our rights

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! There must be a way to allow this great invention to florish without ignoring the rights of human beings.

Maybe there should be a Constitution written for the Internet "society" that would address these types of concerns

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.

 

Sirius, you raise a good point, but the thing is that as we get more involved in the internet society, and become more dependent on electronic transactions, be they email or anything else, we are opening ourselves up to more surveillance and tracking in our daily lives.

The Echelon project is but one device currently in use. How about video? Did you ever think how that is going to change our society - when authorities one day have the ablility to watch every street corner anonymously?

I don't think an internet constitution would be a worthy means of guaranteeing more freedom - because it would not be respected by those who have the ability to abuse the basic rights.

As we embrace technology, we are subject to the invasive nature of these e-tools, and the exploitation that some new scam artist or covert freak is dreaming up.

And if you think the current technology is scary, wait until the bio-tech sector gets up and running.

 

Most Americans I have ever met always come out with the same line, " We`re from the land of the free." and then they waffle on about thier constitution for a bit. But it seems apparent that the US government has no regard for it`s people and thier basic civil rights.

I presume this project was funded primarily by the US government, so my question to you guys is this. How can an apparently democratic government fund a project which undoubtably costs several hundred million dollars, "tax payers dollers" Without authorisation from your Congress first?

As your President can only stay in office for two terms, is he informed of the systems existence?

If he is aware on an official level, then surely he has then broken his oath of office in protecting the civil rights of the people?

If he is not aware, then who is?

The implications are staggering, stop and think.....

A person or persons who are where not elected, are spending hundreds of millions of your dollars on something you certainely didn`t ask for, violates your civil rights, and they spent your money without asking the politians you elected.

See my point? You fellas have got major problems, and it`s alot more serious than having a stranger read your email before you do.

 

There's the television. It's all right there - all right there.

Look, listen, kneel, pray. Commercials!

We're not productive anymore.

We don't make things anymore. It's all automated. What are we *for* then?
We're consumers.

Fact, man, fact - if you don't buy things - toilet paper, new cars, computerized yo-yos,
electrically-operated sexual devices, servo systems with brain-implanted headphones, screwdrivers with miniature built-in radar devices, voice-activated computers -

Yeah. Okay, okay. Buy a lot of stuff, you're a good citizen. But if you don't
buy a lot of stuff, if you don't, what are you then, I ask you? What? Mentally *ill*.

 

Mike:

That's exactly what I've been talking about. The cold war is over, but the warmongers of the old national security apparatus continue as they always have. A few decades ago, the secresy and compromise of some rights seemed acceptable in view of a formidable and devious foe supposedly plotting the nation's downfall. However, now this behavior is no longer justified, and you are absolutely right -- our government has spun out of control, and we better regain the control soon...

As for ever-growing means of invading privacy due to technological progress:
It's of course inevitable that with time it will become ever easier for various organizatios or individuals to spy on us. However, what is not inevitable is that such behavior be considered *legal*, or *permissible* under law. They may spy on you, but if you manage to catch them -- there ought to be hell to pay on their part. And that, by the way, *includes* government organizations.

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I am; therefore I think.

 

Boris,

This probably sounds a bit radical, but bear with me.

With reference to current events with China.

Ever since the end of the cold war the US has been looking for a new foe. the Russians are economically crippled, they probably couldn`t fire thier old missiles even if they wanted too. Iraq is no threat what so ever. So who is left? China, once again we`re being subjected to the evil commie red one liners!

The claim that for the past twenty years they`ve been stealing US nuclear technology at the very least sounds absurd.

The old song of they want to take away our way of life is being chirped by narrow minded politians, but why?

The people who gave the world echelon need an enemy to justify thier existence, and China looks good for it. Nuclear war is unthinkable on both sides, so the risk is small but the gain to your budget is immense.

I have met Russians recently,they seemed like nice people, twenty years ago they would have been evil red devils. I also have a Chinese friend, and if your NSA has it`s way he will be and evil red commie by this time next year. Get my point?

Mean while, the rest of the world has to hold it`s breath and pray that the planet isn`t blown away by the US government playing it`s games.

Far fetched, possibly I know. But this is the perspective of a person looking from the outside into your country.

Knowledge and open mindedness is the only defence, and the internet is our prime asset. Once you take away 99% of the turd on the net there immerges a toll of truth and global openess that can`t be controlled.

Since the growth of the web has become more global, our own governments are loosing the ability to control what we see, hear and read. Which can only be a good thing, and which is definitly something that governments don`t like.

 

A few points to ponder:
First, it's not just the US government doing this thing: it's a UK project,too.
Second, I doubt very seriously that the Congress doesn't know about this. They have been very careful in keeping an eye on the various spy agencies in this country since the 70's. Congress does have to approve the funding of even the NSA.
Third, will everybody stop blaming TV for all the ills of the world? I mean, really!
Fourth, even that moron in the White House is going to take on China. They funded his treason (oops! I meant campaign). The US wouldn't take on China in the Korean war, and they certainly won't do it now that they have nuclear weapons.
Fifth, the US has been snuggling up to China since the 70's. The market is enormous! Over a billion consumers, and they only have six tv's in the whole country (okay, a slight exaggeration).
And lastly, it's not just internet traffic that's being monitored. Cell phones, cable traffic, and just about anything else that's transmitted is being intercepted.


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The Truth is Out There

 

Just "wanted" to let you "know" that you dont have to put every other word in these "newfangled quotations." I have "seen" people "put" quotation "marks" around "almost eveything".

=P

 

I don`t believe that the US government is facsist, nor do I believe they want a war with China. They certainely didn`t want a war with the former USSR but that didn`t stop 50 years of cold war.

What I`m trying to say is this, for the US government to pull together the varied cultural diversities that live in the US, make them salute the flag and say. "We`re from the land of the free." It has to have a big evil enemy, that the people believe wants to destroy thier way of life.

Just look at the attention militia groups which now direct thier hostilities more so toward the government, in the past it would have been toward the evil commie reds.

The seeds have now been sown, the out come is inevitable.

Another thing, if you think Congress was aware of echelon, then why has Congress called for an investigation into how this could be funded without them knowing? As reported on CNN.

 

Why is Congress calling for an investigation?
C.Y.A.

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The Truth is Out There

 

I don't know why, if your an American you tell me?

 

Their public reason for an investigation is to ensure that the constitutional rights of U.S. citizens are not violated by Echelon. Which is a crock of bull in my opinion -- first, because those rights are supposed to be fundamental, and not just reserved for U.S. citizens, and second, because by its very nature Echelon intercepts all communications regardless of origin or destination. As far as I can tell, it's just political grandstanding -- nothing more, nothing less.

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I am; therefore I think.

 

Merit of System, no matter what the system, can only be as good as those running it. Who is to say what people know and what they don't?

 

Well, up here in Canada we tend to have the same notions about personal privacy. That being said, the Canadian Security Information Service (CSIS) was recently (a few years ago) found to be spying on an elected official.

Now if you look at this Echelon system, you will see that any of the countries involved can easily defer the blame off themselves, because it is an multinational organization. Canadian officials can say that they themselves never spied on Canadians, even though UK agents may have done so, and subsequently relayed that information back to Canadian officials. Technically, everyone's hands are clean (no matter that this is a very slimy way around things - it's enough to please the bureaucracies involved).

 

I'm new to these type of public idea postings, so please bear with me.

Big Brother seems to be gain more control everyday. But don't blame this on the Government. This is the peoples fault. We (as any nation) have the responsibilty to control our nations future. If we neglect to control our government's power then we (as a nation) gave them the power to do so. We allow mass media to control our thoughts, (if they say someone is guilty we believe, if they say something is bad, we believe), we as a nation must start to group together to achieve the goals of the collective. And not
follow the few who lead as if they are the sheperds and we are the herd of sheep. We the People have the power and no tyrant government, nor few have more power than the nations people united as one. So as you continue to complain about big brother, remember that you help create him, not by direct contrubution but by neglecting your duties as a member of the nation(s) that he controls.

(Just food for thought)

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Knowledge is limited

 

My question is:
Does anybody know what the key words that
Echelon is searching for? If we all knew the keywords, we could sprinkle them liberally throughout all our e-mail. For example:
Hi bomb Fred! How's your Nuclear family?
With enough people doing this all the time, I think we could really gum up the works.