Internet traffic monitored - Orwellian nightmare

VERY bothersome article from Australian newspaper 'The Age':
www.theage.com.au/daily/990523/news/news3.html

Some excerpts:

"Together with the giant American National Security Agency (NSA) and its Canadian, British, and New Zealand counterparts, DSD operates a network of giant, highly automated tracking stations that illicitly pick up commercial satellite communications and examine every fax, telex, e-mail, phone call, or computer data message that the satellites carry.

The five signals intelligence agencies form the UKUSA pact. They are bound together by a secret agreement signed in 1947 or 1948. Although its precise terms have never been revealed, the UKUSA agreement provides for sharing facilities, staff, methods, tasks and product between the participating governments.

Now, due to a fast-growing UKUSA system called Echelon, millions of messages are automatically intercepted every hour, and checked according to criteria supplied by intelligence agencies and governments in all five UKUSA countries. The intercepted signals are passed through a computer system called the Dictionary, which checks each new message or call against thousands of ``collection'' requirements. The Dictionaries then send the messages into the spy agencies' equivalent of the Internet, making them accessible all over the world. "

"Until this year, the US Government has tried to ignore the row over Echelon by refusing to admit its existence. The Australian disclosures today make this position untenable. US intelligence writer Dr Jeff Richelson has also obtained documents under the US Freedom of Information Act, showing that a US Navy-run satellite receiving station at Sugar Grove, West Virginia, is an Echelon site, and that it collects intelligence from civilian satellites."

"Information is also fed into the Echelon system from taps on the Internet, and by means of monitoring pods which are placed on undersea cables. Since 1971, the US has used specially converted nuclear submarines to attach tapping pods to deep underwater cables around the world. "

The full report can be downloaded here:
http://jya.com/ic2000.zip

Also read:
www.techweb.com/wire/story/TWB19990518S0004
search.nytimes.com/search/daily/bin/fastweb?getdoc+site+iib-site+71+0+wAAA+echelon


[This message has been edited by DaveW (edited May 28, 1999).]

 

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This is "shocking." For what purpose? Civilian connections can't possibly post a threat to any government. Can it? Do you think the Seti at home project could be secretly collecting all the information we have on our hard drives and sending it back through this "spy connection?"

I guess "Big Brother" is watching us more thoroughly than George Orwell thought!

 

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Of course the Government is able to tap into internet communications. Where did the internet start? Who funded it? DARPA. One of the first nodes was connected directly to the Pentagon. This is why the Administration is so vehemently against encryption. They don't want to have to devote any more resources than they have to to read your mail; they want to spend the money to read Saddam's mail. Therefore, don't send anything that you don't want Uncle to read.


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The Truth is Out There

 

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The investigation into the Echelon system by the EU concluded last year, the case was then closed. Apparently some non UKUSA members led by the French have thier own similiar system, so they`re keeping quite. As for the invasion of privacy? The governments we elect have a responsibility to the protection of it`s people, from thier enemies and from themselves by any means to preserve a stable society. So if you haven`t got anything to hide and your not planning on killing lots of people, then why shouldn`t you mind someone in Fort Austin US or GCHQ UK reading your rubbish jokes and Dilbert cartoons?

 

This is interisting, but if the government can, why not someone else? Bill Gates OWNS Microsoft, he'd probably be the first to set up a system like this. With the technology he has acces to, he's probably spying ON the government! Not to mention that Microsoft has its own free e-mail service. Why? Maybe companies are being hired by the government to spy on us. Wait a second, I'm using Microsofts e-mail service...uh-oh!

 

Who Care.. Yep Who Cares.. Do you really care if some government can access your E-mail to find out your lunch plans with bob341@hotmail.com? I mean what do normal people do on the net that a normal person needs to be conserned about? Oh Oh Oh I got a Ecard, Big Brother is watching me.. oh oh Im scared.. face it the days were we had the option not to be sheep are long gone..

and think of the benefits.. No More Spam-mail!, Kiddy-porn would be gone!, Hate sites would be gone! Those annoying send 10 people this link or we will come and kick your pets, would be gone too. The internet would be a better place for everyone..

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(Midnight@golden.net)
(Ouch.my.head)
(http://home.golden.net/~midnight/)

[This message has been edited by Mid12am (edited June 01, 1999).]

 

"Ooh!" good point Mid12am,

That makes giving up my right to privacy all the more bearable

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Although, I must admit, I do hate those spammers!

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What Privicy?

The web is wide open.. most parts are accessable by anyone.
My E-mail is sent through a company.. Who is to say they don't monitor it already?
Newsgroups are accessable by everyone.
There is nothing private about the "Net"



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(Midnight@golden.net)
(Ouch.my.head)
(http://home.golden.net/~midnight/)

 

I am not a fan of Spammers, Kiddie porn, hate sites, or anything else that is not considered "good" on the 'net. However, as history has pointed out, give the government an inch, they'll take a light year.
This whole discussion is starting to sound like the gun control debate. I don't own any guns, but I can see their point.
Remember, there is a large group of people in this country (look at the executive branch, for instance) that thinks we don't know how to live our lives, and want to legislate every little thing. Look at what happened to tobacco. What's next? Salt? Fatty meat? Beer? It's starting to sound like a line from "Demolition Man". "...is bad for you, hence it's illegal."
Trust NO one.

 

Phil G,

I agree 101% !!!!!!!!!!!!!

As for privacy,

Of course the web is wide open, the point I was "trying" to make can be illustrated with the following:

...suppose everytime you post a message here the words you type were "observed" by some "virtual cop" who's job is to re-type what he thought should "accually" be posted!

Don't you think things could eventually end up this way? (or very close to it)

Sensorship is control. NO human should have control over another in this manner.

 

The whole point I was trying to make is that you never want to set a precedent of giving up any kind of right or freedom. The government gave up control of the internet, but it still wants to be able to read your mail. I'm not so naive as to believe that everything I type is secure; but I don't want the gov. looking out for me either. Everybody harps about their "rights", but they don't talk about the flip side of the coin, which is responsibility.
But I digress.
If the Justice Department tapped your phone w/o a warrant, you'd be pissed.
If the Postal Service opened your mail, you'd be pissed.
If the FBI spied through your bedroom window, you'd be pissed.
So what's the difference between the above, and some spook reading your E-mail, even if it is innocuous?

 

O my god, a message from the future !


PhilG,

how come when I post it's only 11:00 am while you seem to 'have written' this at 12:30 am ?


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we are midgets standing on the backs of giants,
Plato

 

I read something along this line a couple of years ago (I can't remember where I read it), but it pertained to phone calls not the internet at the time.

Something about calls being screened once they reached the satellite and searched for key words that might pertain to national security. If the computer picked up any key words, the call was then evaluated and sent to the appropriate agency.

Over the years I have thought about that when having a negative discussion about Clinton or the government, etc.

And the gov't wonders why we have so little trust in them.

And we are the one's that are paranoid!!!

Bev

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I think most of the people who are placing posts on this message board are thinking merely on a domestic level. Your only looking as far as your own front door. The reported Echelon system is world wide, the five participating nations each have thier own sector of the planet to cover. The principle is simple, mutual co-operation with the sharing of data. Not only do these countries spy on non members of the group, but they also spy on each other. Simply because it`s illegal for a nation to spy on it`s own people, so why not let a friend do it and share the data collected.
I`m interested in the cries for privacy, yes this is an intrusion, but think of the good? Terrorists, criminals, sex offenders and the like being hunted down. Secret organisations planning to overthrough democratically elected governments targeted by the good guys. The simple facts are that it`s easy to shout about governments and thier underhand tactics, but think of why they do it? Simply to protect us. You may not be planning a terrorist bombing campaign, but there are people who are. So isn`t a minor intrusion into privacy a small price to pay? Or are you the type of person who just thinks as long as I`m okay, and nothing happens to me then screw everyone else. Like I posted earlier, is it really such a big deal someone reading your Dilberts before you do?

 

Mike don't be naive. They are not doing it for the "good of all mankind"! That is sugar coating! They are doing it for their own self interest. We pay billions in taxpayers dollars to employ agencies to protect our best interest. And I still believe in the constitution. Give them an inch....

Bev

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[This message has been edited by Bev (edited June 03, 1999).]

 

No, Mike, I AM thinking globally.
Like China.
Like the old Soviet Union.
Like the many little tinpot dictatorships in Africa, Central America, and South America.
I like being able to sign on to the Internet and look at any site I want, without some Big Brother looking over my shoulder.
I don't particularly care if the CIA, MI6, or anybody else reads my E-mail (in fact, I wish I knew what the key words were, so I could spam the bastards). I have nothing to hide, and I do nothing I am ashamed of.
What PISSES me off is the fact that I could lose the ability to see what I want, to do what I want, to write these words. Look to the example of history; there's always some socialist group whining about our society.
But where else in the world can you kick back, crack a beer, and surf the net without some sort of government intrusion? Not many places, I fear.
So enjoy it while you can.
PS I am in Wyoming, mountain time.

 

I think what bothers me most is that it's like an anglosaxon only club who feels they should be the guardians of the world. What gives them the right ? If somethings needs to be monitored it should be done by everybody.
Have you heard of the idea's of David Brin about the transparant society ? Have a look at http://laissezfaire.org/ws8018.html it might be a possible future.

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we are midgets standing on the backs of giants,
Plato

 

Another thing to think of,

People are always concerned with there own privacy, within good reason this is understandable. But I feel sometimes the passion people have in thinking that governments want to pry into thier own lives, overshadows what I feel is the reality for the system.

Economic advantage over your oponents.

Knowing other governments, countries and foreign industries economic stategy, promotes our own stability. This inturn gives our own governments an edge in preserving thier own internal stability. That is economic stability, crime and terrorism is another, but related issue. This stability is taken for granted by us, just think what it would be like to live in a tin pot African country or former USSR nation without the safeguards we take for granted? Where your countries currency can fluctuate 20, 30, 40, 50% and more in just a day. OK, an exageration, but do you get my point? Think about it.....?

 

Okay, Mike, you're saying that it's okay to subvert the Constitution for economic gain?
Doesn't this fall under unreasonable search? Or perhaps we could all call each other Comrade and chalk this intrusion up to the common good?
What if the government decided that you couldn't overtly criticize the President? And they found a Clinton joke in your E-mail? Here come the men in the unmarked vans to take you away, impound your computer, and maybe give you some jail time, too.
Farfetched? Maybe. Or maybe now.
Who knows what the future will bring?

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The Truth is Out There

 

In U.S. we have this thing called the Constitution. That declares some rights as inalienable, and guarantees them forever as long as the nation stands. Among those rights is the right to privacy.

So, my dear hypocrites, tell me something.
How is it constitutional for U.S. organizations to spy on U.S. citizens? And when you are through with that one, tell me how is it that the inalienable rights apply only to Americans, and not to the rest of human race?

How can we declare the right to privacy to be fundamental, and then go spy on innocent civilians of *any* nation? Does this remind anybody of the good old days, when all men were created equal, except for the Negroes, the Injuns, the Gooks, the Jews, the...?

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I am; therefore I think.