Intelligent Design

Discussion in 'Religion' started by Xelasnave.1947, Sep 11, 2018.

  1. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    I am trying to reach out and understand theists beliefs and although theists are a large group I ask if there are anyhere who believe that the concept of intelligent design is valid and if without it the God idea starts to have problems.
    It seems very scientific given they dont seem to claim that God is the intelligent designer and have a variety of examples that clearly point to an intelligent designer as the only possible answer.
    So if you support the idea of intelligent design could you please tell me more about this refreshing scientific concept☺
    And lets not bring evolution into it as it is just a theory clearly unproven.
    I certainly object to the notion my ansrstors were apes although looking at the photos I could see how folk could say such.
    I have asked one theist here to comment on Intelligent design but so far no reply so maybe it is a scientific sacred concept not to be shared with those satanic devil worshipers we call atheists.
    Please you best example of intelligent design and who the inteligent designer could be...please lets keep it scientific no references to God being the intelligent designer.
    Alex
     
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  3. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    Please all you atheists wanting to reject the idea if you could remain seated and allow our resident theists to post...no doubt they will have plenty to say.
    Alex
     
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  5. Bowser Life is Fatal. Valued Senior Member

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    The intelligent designer, without whom none of this would exist...
     

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  7. Michael 345 Looking for Bali in Nov Valued Senior Member

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    Nails feet to the floor
    Glues arse to chair
    Sews lips together
    Waits for those who consider they have been designed intelligently and imbued with intelligence to fire up
    Bring it on

    Sir Sir can we cut in after say 200 crap (pre judging) post pleessee

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  8. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    There is a photo of me.
    I did not mean that intelligent designer but enough of me talking about me ..I will withdraw so you can talk about me.

    I love designing things, I wish I kept it all as Leonardo would not hold a candle to me...

    Everything that you see around you today was at one point and idea of mine.

    Well not porno movies I would never have thought of that.

    But everything else...me.

    So I am interested to seek out other intelligent designers as clearly we will have a great deal in common.

    Seriously Bowser what do you think...

    Could all life and non life and the entire universe have been designed by an intelligent designer...I mean someone similar to me and almost as good as me at designing.

    Are you prepared to discuss this in any way at all?
    Given your spirituality etc perhaps you could enlighten me.
    Alex
     
  9. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    Look I wont have you droping in destroying discussion by unreasonable demands for facts.

    You must understand these matters cant be dealt with by facts you have to stand back and consider what best supports your instict to believe in stuff that Jan believes in...and I tell you if he would only explain what he believes in I just know we all would.

    But I understand he has probably made a covenant with "is" not to let us atheist folk in on any of it.

    I bet Jan is ticking God off big time even talking to us...do you realise the risk he must run just to chat here...he is probably looking forward to at least half an eternity of pain from torture inflicted by...who inflicts the pain...not God obviously he loves us...who does he get to do stuff lime that.

    If you really want to comment well go ahead but remember this is about the science of intelligent design so dont go bringing in any supernatural explanations just science stuff that hints at supernatural stuff.

    Alex
     
  10. Bowser Life is Fatal. Valued Senior Member

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    How can you define the divine other than what is apparent? You look at the stars, X. Are you not a reflection of what you see? When you open your eyes in the morning, is there any doubt where you are? Moreover, why is the guy below so frickin' happy...
     

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  11. Michael 345 Looking for Bali in Nov Valued Senior Member

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    My intentions are good and no intention of making unreasonable demands for facts

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  12. Michael 345 Looking for Bali in Nov Valued Senior Member

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    I'll take that to heart and will look at science - which should be very easy don't you know - because science does permit intelligent designs (but it doesn't make them)

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  13. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    That is a great question how can you?

    The way it seems to go is folk define the devine by whatever they make up.

    This is not totally acceptable only because we could be trying to work out reality with a few nutters kicking in with crazy stuff...I know you are not crazy and your spirituality is your inoccent attempt to involve spirituality in your life.
    And that is absolutely crazy as you are just deluding yourself with stuff that has no foundation in reality but otherwise yes very good.

    What is apparent?
    Only facts are...the rezt os what you bend your thoughts to construct... Gods ate inventions and are ok so long as you realise you invented them you are their master...go for it then and make up anything that makes you happy.

    Firstly in answer to a qieztion I cant temember..

    a God who confuses his pets with strange messages entrusted to bronze age folk who really did not have a clue...

    Mind you before we speculate there is a God we really need to establish the points of contact this God had with humans.

    Any many or few...mmm only a few...lets hope they wete nut nut jobs who only imagined their contact.


    There must be a few I expect but do not underestimate the hangers on who may jump in saying they have spoken to God.

    We need a list who has actually spoken to God?

    I can see how everything could be used as evidence for your creator but really we need some links between what you see as devine and of that has any relationship to a God.

    I cant do that but happily you are here and no doubt you can show us how it all comes together.

    There is a certain irony here..I actually dont look at the stars so much as photograph them and of course once photographed they become sacred and so I cant even look at the photos I have taken unless I have not eaten shell fish that week...what are the chances...the lobster and crab and prawns or as you call them shrimp...I look at the stars and embrace the hugeness and think no that religion is just a pile of horse feathers.

    What it does tell me is we are so small any belief is irrelevant...yours or mine...who really gives a ratz...knowing or at least considering the size of the universe on a regular basis I can not see a creator would care zip about us.

    There must be billions of other worlds with intelligent life and so it must be that your God is somewhat two timing us...mmmm make that billion timing us...maybe trillion timing us.

    Not lately but there have been times..She looks familar but I dont know her name and we are both naked...but after a coffee you try and work it out...and then one or two for the road..coffees I mean.

    What does knowing where you are have to do with the size of the universe or the fact you are almost alive?

    Havent you been drunk the next day or run one day into two ...what does it matter if you wake up...sooner or later you remember where you left the car...I dont get what you drive at.

    I dont think the photo shows how happy I am.

    You would not believe how happy I am.

    Happiest person I know.

    Folk love to be around me because I am so happy.

    Girls love you to be happy and so they do things that they think will make you happy...sure but I think it was probably an extreme way to get happy...anyways the photo does not show how happy I can be or how naked one can be...but thats good right.

    I often wonder about that photo because I am so much more handsome and of course more happy...I think I was worried about holding the camera...I never hold the camera when I am getting photos..she holds it...and then there are her movies...who would look at them?

    But nothing I said is real I just love being a little bit theist...

    But seriously I am so happy that I am happy...its my best quality...be happy, kind and rich is the ideal I have tried to reach...still working on rich and feeding myself.

    The main reason that I can be happy is I look at the poor folk who have been brainwashed or conned to conversion and I think ..."wow you are so together and dont need that crap and as stupid as you are (me) you at least keep it real.

    The is a huge pride one gets from not accepting bullshit and having the courage to stand up and say "stick your bronze age nonsence where the Sun dont shine...but unfortunately as these folk dont know where the Sun goes at night they sre not going to figure out where to stick it.

    Nice photos by the way.
    Alec
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2018
  14. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    I dont like science ...its always right and always so perfect....why have a system where everything has to have support and even if there is just one small mistake the lot gets thrown out...seems wasteful.

    Now you take the good book...never have to change the type set...reliable always what it now is what it was two thousand years ago...that is dependable.
    Alec
     
  15. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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  16. Gawdzilla Sama Valued Senior Member

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    The world is not intelligently designed. The UNIVERSE is not intelligently designed.
     
  17. Xelasnave.1947 Valued Senior Member

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    You say that which is evidence of your denial☺.

    How can you prove that it wasnt...I think that is pretty scientific.

    No wait science proceeds from hypothisis via observation trial and testing to arrive at a model of reality that makes testable predictions the failure of any prediction sees that model thrown out...just like the intelligent dedign mob except for the bits between hypothisis and testable prediction.

    Alex
     
  18. Michael 345 Looking for Bali in Nov Valued Senior Member

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    Umpivv ummfsyb bhjjdsgn not hgxzcsh jjihjnv designed .

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  19. Gawdzilla Sama Valued Senior Member

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    To start with, the surface is 70% killyouifyoudon'tbecarefulstuff. Then there's defecation, hardly an intelligent way to deal with waste products. And on the subject of eating, how intelligent is it to eat other living things? Valuable resources are hundreds of feet underground in some cases, and difficult to extract in others. Then there's humans. No planet would be intelligently designed that had humans on it.
     
  20. Yazata Valued Senior Member

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    Trying to get the theists to stick their necks out so that they can be more easily chopped off, right?

    That makes me want to play Devil's-Advocate.

    While I don't believe in it myself, I do think that it might have some plausibility (however slight) simply as a hypothesis.

    (Not a scientific hypothesis, more of a metaphysical hypothesis.) It also seemingly reduces the 'God' of religious tradition to whatever unknowns fulfill particular metaphysical functions, which is problematic from the religious viewpoint.

    That would only be the case if "the God idea" was somehow dependent on the design argument.

    After you explain the "laws of physics" and their origin.

    Why does the universe (at least seemingly) behave in accordance with reason? If the impression that it does is correct (and science rests upon that assumption), then one might want to make an argument that whatever accounts for and explains the existence of the principles that seemingly govern the universe, is rational too in some sense.

    And spinning that kind of idea out a bit, there's this:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fine-tuned_Universe

    https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/fine-tuning/
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2018
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  21. exchemist Valued Senior Member

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    Thanks for this. The last part strikes me as a very nice statement of what many educated Christians (e.g. Jesuit priests etc) seem to think about God and creation.

    Note however that this does not entail Intelligent Design, or at any rate not in the sense in which it is generally used, i.e. that of the American ID movement (basically OE creationism, flying under the legal radar). It is merely a belief that the universe - and the order in it which renders it intelligible to us and from which we derive the so-called "laws of nature" - may have been created and may be upheld by a creator God. There need be no supernatural interference with the processes of nature, as ID proposes in the case of life on Earth.

    As for the fine-tuning argument, personally I no longer buy this (though I once did, when I was a lot younger). It seems to me it relies on a false understanding of probability. ID does use this argument, I think.
     
  22. Yazata Valued Senior Member

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    I don't buy the fine-tuning arguments either.

    For one thing, they reek of hubris. Science doesn't fully understand this universe in which we find ourselves. So ruling on what's possible and not possible in all possible universes (or even defining what that set consists of) seems to me to be exceedingly speculative by its very nature.

    Another objection is that I think that the 'Fine Tuning for Life' arguments seem to conceive of 'life' as being identical to the Earth-life that we see around us. I'm more inclined to conceive of life functionally. Life is whatever fulfills a set of functions. I'm not sure what those functions are, but at the minimum they would seem to include making more of themselves (whatever 'themselves' is) and being subject to natural selection so that evolution occurs.

    I'm not convinced that what we see here on Earth is the only way to accomplish that. This objection seems to me to have great relevance to the search for extraterrestrial life. I'm inclined to think that Earth-life is the end result of a huge succession of fortuitous events that are unlikely to repeat in exact detail anywhere else. Which doesn't mean that many other chains of events couldn't have resulted in something functionally equivalent.

    Regarding universes, I think in much the same way. If we change the physical constants or the laws of physics... (why does fine tuning assume that constants might be different, while the forms of the laws of physics are invariant?)... we probably won't end up with this kind of universe. But is that really the point, duplicating this universe? Or should we be asking whether stable structures could form in a universe ruled by different principles? (But not too stable, since change would have to be possible. Chemical bonds form, but they break too.) If so, then could the functions that define 'life' sustain themselves there so that something functionally equivalent to Earth-life appears? (And concludes that its weird universe must be 'fine-tuned for life', despite its perhaps not even having atoms and molecules or planets and stars, but other things entirely, unimagined by Earthlings.)

    All in all, I think that there are just too many unknowns in these kind of speculations, so I'm inclined to think that the 'fine tuning' arguments are little more than scientific butt-farts.
     
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  23. pluto2 Registered Senior Member

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    Intelligent design is obviously bullshit and this is why I think you guys are making stuff up and call it science which it obviously isn't.

    The Universe is very hostile to life and could wipe us out at any moment.

    Even on this little planet many people are barely surviving so if intelligent design were true this planet and the human condition would have been much much better than it is now.

    The way I see it all religion is made-up bullshit made to trick and manipulate gullible people into believing it.

    This is why I want nothing to do with religion and anything associated with it.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2018
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