Infinity

Discussion in 'General Philosophy' started by Bigtraine, Dec 17, 2001.

  1. swarm Registered Senior Member

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    Very well.

    Though I still find it amusing that the monkeys actually wrote Shakespeare's complete works before they invented the typewriter to bang on resulting in an undefined answer to the question.
     
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  3. Escaped Goat Registered User and Abuser Registered Senior Member

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    Shakespeare's works = finite number of characters (letters and spaces).

    Monkey types for an eternity (towards infinity)?

    Monkey types each of Shakespeare's works many times.
     
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  5. one_raven God is a Chinese Whisper Valued Senior Member

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    Assertion is not proof.
    I don’ t buy it.
    Show me why just because it IS possible means it WILL happen.
    You have not done that.

    First off, random implies the event was not impacted in any way by any extenuating circumstances.
    We are talking about a primate (a living being who suffers from conditioned responses) banging on a mechanical device. “Truly random” is not possible.
    In fact, I’m not certain that “Truly random” is possible at all, in reality.
    That aside…

    The longer time you have the greater the degree of probability. I agree with that.
    However, extrapolation from that to something definitely happening is where this falls apart.


    I disagree.
    Randomness implies, as I said, that the outcome is not impacted by any external factors.
    If you flip a coin and it lands on heads, it is STILL a 50/50 chance that it will land on heads again.
    Thus, if it ever landed on heads with that 50/50 chance, then it is certainly possible for it to never land on tails, because each time that chance is STILL 50/50.
    If it is possible to land on heads once, it is possible to land on heads every time.

    First of all, conditions do not matter, because for it to be “Truly Random” the conditions can not affect the outcome at all.
    It has to be a fresh slate each time.
    Secondly, with that reasoning, you can say that it is possible for him to press A repeatedly for infinity.
    There IS a chance of it occurring.

    Nonsense.

    Is it unlikely to flip a coin once a minute for a week and it land on heads 100% of the time?
    Of course.
    Is it possible?
    Of course.
     
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  7. one_raven God is a Chinese Whisper Valued Senior Member

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    Regardless, the expression is meaningless.
     
  8. StrangerInAStrangeLand SubQuantum Mechanic Valued Senior Member

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    Nothing is truly random. Everything has a cause.
     
  9. swarm Registered Senior Member

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  10. swarm Registered Senior Member

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    That claim is less supportable than god.
     
  11. Sarkus Hippomonstrosesquippedalo phobe Valued Senior Member

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    That matter of it being has already been discussed - and we are now talking about true randomness. Afterall, a monkey will just as likely pick the typewriter up and hurl it across the room within a few minutes of starting, not to mention be unable to live an infinite life?

    Apologies - an oversight on my part

    Take the coin-toss...
    Probability of heads = 0.5, agreed (ignoring the chance of landing on its edge)...

    The probability of 2 heads in a row... 0.5^2 = 0.25.
    The probability of 10 heads in a row... 0.5^10 = 0.0009766 (1/1024).

    As the number of heads in a row increases, the probability tends to zero.
    At infinite times, the probability IS zero.


    Similarly one can prove that after an infinite number of times something that has even a remote probability on a specific occurrence of the event WILL happen if an infinite number of those occurrences take place:

    Take an event that has a 1 in a billion chance:
    P(event) = 0.000000001
    P(not-event) = 0.999999999

    P(not-event) after 1 billion attempts = P(not-event)^1billion = 0.36787944

    If you work it out after an 2 billion attempts, you get 0.1353353.
    After 4 billion attempts: 0.0183...
    After 8 billion attempts: 0.0003354...

    And after an infinite number of times... : ZERO

    I.e. the probability of the event not occurring after an infinite number of times is ZERO.
    Therefore the event WILL happen, no matter how small the probability of it occurring on each individual occurrence.

    You could take an event that has any finite chance of occurring (e.g. typing out the works of Shakespeare).
    Only something that has ZERO chance will not happen given an infinite number of attempts.

    The only way this would be possible if the tapping of the keyboard was NOT random, and the chance of tapping A on any single occurrence was 100%...

    P(tapping A), in that case, would be 1.0.
    The chance of it occurring every time for an infinite time would thus also be 1.0.
    However, if P(tapping A) < 1.0, then the chance of it occurring an infinite number of times is ZERO.

    There is certainly a chance of it occurring in a finite number of taps, but not an infinite.
    See the maths above.


    Flawed argument as you are now discussing a finite time-period, not the infinite one being discussed.
     
  12. EndLightEnd This too shall pass. Registered Senior Member

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    Infinity basically equates to all possibilities. Your bound to get lucky 100,000 times in a row when you have eternity.
     
  13. swivel Sci-Fi Author Valued Senior Member

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    Great explanation, Sarkus.
     
  14. StrangerInAStrangeLand SubQuantum Mechanic Valued Senior Member

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    HUH???
    There is something which isn't caused?
     
  15. swarm Registered Senior Member

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    Matter and energy are neither created nor destroyed. They therefore are not caused.

    Some quantum events are not caused.
     
  16. StrangerInAStrangeLand SubQuantum Mechanic Valued Senior Member

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    If there ever is or was anything that wasn't caused then anything can happen anytime any number of times without any cause.
     
  17. one_raven God is a Chinese Whisper Valued Senior Member

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    So you believe that they always existed and the Big Bang is a bunch of nonsense?
    Regardless, we are talking about events being caused.
    Without causation, matter would be stagnant, and all energy would simply be potential energy.

    This has not been proven, just postulated to account for where the Copenhagen Interpretation as fellen short of reality.
     
  18. EndLightEnd This too shall pass. Registered Senior Member

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    Big bang does not imply 'creation' of energy. Who is to say that energy did not come from somewhere else, converted at the time of the big bang?

    What makes you think the potential itself isnt cause enough?
     
  19. one_raven God is a Chinese Whisper Valued Senior Member

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    Not me, but the Big Bang does.

    Because then it wouldn't be "Potential Energy".
     
  20. one_raven God is a Chinese Whisper Valued Senior Member

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    Please explain to me a scenario in which potential energy can be the cause.
    Even if there was always matter and energy, something has to make the first move, somehing had to cause the first spark, something had to be the first cause - unless the universe is as it always has been.
    Either there was a first cause, or there was not - I don't see how potential energy could have been that cause.
     
  21. EndLightEnd This too shall pass. Registered Senior Member

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    Ok I see. Whats the kick that converts the potential to kinetic?

    I dunno, how about a single quantum fluctuation and huge potential I guess.
     
  22. swarm Registered Senior Member

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    There is no reason to believe your statement is true.

    That specific things happen without cause (such as the existence of the universe and the spontaneous creation and destruction of particles in vacuum decay in the presence overcritical electromagnetic fields), doesn't necessarily imply that "anything can happen anytime any number of times without any cause."
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2009
  23. swarm Registered Senior Member

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    4,207
    Matter and energy are neither created nor destroyed.

    The big bang is a transition point from one state to another.
     

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