In reality

Discussion in 'General Philosophy' started by Cyperium, Aug 17, 2006.

  1. Cyperium I'm always me Valued Senior Member

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    I face reality all day long, yet there is something that is so common that I normally don't think much about it.

    It's more than a sensation or a feeling, it doesn't bear the resemblence of an idea or a illusion or fantasy, rather it contradicts illusion and totally swallows me in it's ability to have the control and be unexplainable and unchangable by me.

    It is.

    That's the message it seems to hold. The meaning it has lasts forever.

    I am used to take things in, in order to understand them. But this I can't take in, only some of it's presense allows for my evaluation, but it rather takes me in. It seems trustworthy because of that nature.

    Maybe it is reality itself, just the sensation of being here. It's like water for the thirsty mind.

    It seems absolute, and I thought about it and understood that I really don't need much else to feel that there is meaning where I am. It seems to hold absolute meaning. A piece of Truth. I never have to worry since it gives me meaning, it's not something that depend on me.

    Do you understand what I am talking about? Have you felt it yourself?

    It's a nice thing. As I believe in God, I appreciate that whatever great He created, He must be even greater, even more real. Maybe what I felt is the presense of God?

    I can't say for certain, but the feeling I get from it, seem to bear the meaning itself.
     
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  3. Absane Rocket Surgeon Valued Senior Member

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    Yes and Yes.

    It feels like you are strapped to reality but there is a part of you that feels like you can escape it (in a metaphysical sense.. not TV or video games). But you get stressed because you can't. You are stuck. Like in the movie The Matrix.

    It feels like "something isn't right." All the parts don't add up to the whole. There is something else.. but you cannot put your fingers on it. I don't attribute it to "God" or whatever you want that is supernatural. But rather more or perhaps less.

    Think of it like this.. you live on a 2D plane that is in a 3D world full of so much more. You are stuck in 2D but you can't help be feel there is something else out there.. bigger and more complex. Something the brain of a 2D being cannot comprehend. I'm not saying ni our 3D spatial world there is a 4D that I cannot sense, but I mean that there is something out there that makes my world come together as one piece.. whole. But since I cannot figure it out, I am stressed about it.

    Right?
     
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  5. Cyperium I'm always me Valued Senior Member

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    If you have read some science books, and math and such, then look at the real world. There is a difference. For me there is a difference, the difference I think is that the theories and books are man-made, in a way they are only theories that men have thought up (and some women indeed), but reality is something more than this, it's something that we haven't figured out yet, and thus it is extraordinary. Also, reality has this quality of being unique and ageless, all our theories are new in respect to the answer in reality. It was here through all history, through all seasons, it's dependable and it rests here for all to see it.

    But it isn't reality itself I am talking about, it's a certain aspect of it, it's hard to explain, the closest explanation would be a feeling, but it's more robust than a feeling and it doesn't seem to change or fade away, rather you fade away from it.
     
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  7. Cyperium I'm always me Valued Senior Member

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    I guess that is what I'm talking about. However as you explained it by using 2D and 3D it gives it a different feel. Instead of what I was searching for I got the impression of 4D as you were saying that you didn't mean.

    I think that when you find love that the world will come together again. It doesn't necessarily have be the love of a girlfriend, but the love of people that care, the love that you yourself care, and the love of friends and family also, this makes the world come together and it is what enables me to find peace and calmness within my life.

    Even when you have found all that, there is still something missing. But instead of stressed you are happy that there is. Since it gives meaning to you, and the pleasure of searching for answers that isn't crusial to you, but fun and interesting to find.
     
  8. Cyperium I'm always me Valued Senior Member

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    It wasn't reality as is, it was a quality of reality, and yes, I think it is absolute, the process of perception is selective, but the perception itself isn't. You really do see things, but later they can be (mis)understood as something else, this can go to the extreme if you are a unlucky character, living in a world totally of your own, where you have faded away from reality. Cause in that sense, reality is absolute and it is you that have to move.

    Objective reality isn't thought up by us (if you don't think we are living in the Matrix that is), and objective becomes subjective, and the subjective has one quality of reality that has the same character of absoluteness as objective reality has, that is that it is unchangable by us, and the only way that it isn't unchangable by us, is if we move away from it and think of something else as being reality. But if you haven't felt it yourself, you probably wouldn't understand.
     
  9. c7ityi_ Registered Senior Member

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    my brain doesn't filter anything.
     
  10. Prince_James Plutarch (Mickey's Dog) Registered Senior Member

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    I am going to play the devil's advocate and say:

    It's just a feeling. Seriously. We all have "vague feelings" that mean nothing at all.
     
  11. perplexity Banned Banned

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  12. Crunchy Cat F-in' *meow* baby!!! Valued Senior Member

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    It sounds like you might be experiencing some combination of psychological need and a relationship with yourself.

    Well without knowing exactly what you felt I can't say. What I can say is that I've had many ultra-fantastic experiences that are utterly alien by comparison to every day life.

    Maybe it was the zaboombafoo dimension?
     
  13. Kaiduorkhon Registered Senior Member

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    One of these elusive zephyrs being the perpendicular motion of all things 3-dimensional, constituting an ever experienced, ever non recognized 4th dimension of time, motion and gravity. Refer http://forums.delphiforums.com/EinsteinGroupie
     
  14. Cyperium I'm always me Valued Senior Member

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    But it isn't vague. It is real, in a different way than ordinary feelings. It's not sufficient to call it a feeling.
     
  15. Cyperium I'm always me Valued Senior Member

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    It's not a need. No characteristic of it is needful.

    Am I experiancing a relationship with myself?

    Hmmm...

    I'm me. In what way can I have a relationship with myself?

    I allways relate to me. Me is me, it is the base for relating, not something to relate to...I can relate my thoughts to thoughts of others, I can similiarily relate my beliefs to the beliefs of others, my views on things to the views of others, I can also relate what I know now, to what I've known before. Or whatever other relation there may be. But the present me, cannot be related to the present me, since it is me (absolute in a sense).

    I can think of myself in terms of good and bad and such, that may be a way to have a relationship with myself, but only through other means. Not me relating to me, but me relating to good and bad and such.

    The feeling, is not simply a relationship with myself, even though I can relate to it in different ways to gather some of its meaning.






    Yes, but this isn't alien by comparison to every day life. It's allways there, giving meaning and strength, since it is meaningful and strong.



    I can't relate to that.
     
  16. Ogmios Must. learn. to. punctuate! Registered Senior Member

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    Too long words, I'll just skip to what I have to say..

    The mind only uses very little of the sense data we receive. The rest we ignore as useless. This can be proved simply by reading any comic (well "any"..). The lines seen are all the mind reads of the real world. Assimilating any more data would bind up brain-resources, making us dumber (might be the reason why some are smart and some are dumb... I dunno). I think the presence of Reality can be felt when you Stop and Look. Observe instead of projecting your models towards reality. It can be somewhat overwhelming. Is this what you meant?

    Or did you mean that reality feels "wrong", somehow. Or you know reality is right but...

    I've got this since I was five (or young, anyway). Ever since there's been a "There must be more to life than this!" in my head (metaphorically..). The way I see it, you observe actions (cause and effect) you cannot comprehend, or look at the world and something feels wrong. This is a realization that you cannot explain all phenomenon, that your models (in your head) do not match reality. The "something wrong" is a mistake or error in your perception. You've experienced something that does not fit into the way your world works, or everything around you chirps of the discrepancy between your inner model of the world and the world.

    In Matrix this was reverse; The "real" world did not match the model in Neo's head. In our case it might be more safe to assume the model in your head is mismatched with the real. The choice is really the same; shape your models, admit you were wrong, or pretend everything is cool and just forget about it. It might take very radical change to get it right, but the other option is really just scrap your natural ability to discern truth, that is to doubt your own ability of perception.

    Is this what you meant?
     
  17. Cyperium I'm always me Valued Senior Member

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    Yes, that is what I meant

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    When looking out on the world, it can't be compared to any view you have "inside", but the presence of the real world before your eyes is this overwhelming meaningful feeling I get. It's not just that I see reality before me, it's that it carries some kind of 'feeling' with it, that is utterly meaningful, it can't be doubted and can't be tampered with. I don't know what it actually is, but I guess that it is the feeling of seeing something that you believe in absolutly, it can't be compromised.




    I see what you mean, I've had this too, that maybe my inner model don't match reality. Even in the simplest of terms we often fail to describe reality for what it is.

    But reality doesn't talk against my ideas, rather it doesn't talk for any single one, rather it accepts that I make up my own mind on the matter of things.



    ( what I meant was what you said before, about the overwhelming feeling that you get when simply observing reality for what it is ), however I see what you mean with what you wrote here too, we all have to shape our own ideas of things, but there are concepts that for a individual are fundamental, and which the other ideas (in my view) must fit with, sometimes I can get this insight that an idea seems particularly compatible with reality and my "fundamentals", these insights are really comforting to learn from.

    I think to some level that everyone has it's share of the truth, but that we get clouded by so many other concepts and ideas that we find it hard to see our truth.
     
  18. Ogmios Must. learn. to. punctuate! Registered Senior Member

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    A mental picture came to me one day when I was sitting at a bus, about how people covet whatever they know. I just imagined a kid, holding a toy to his chest, saying "you can't take it away!" and looking deifant. All the while he'd be surrounded by tons of toys..

    People fear losing what little wisdom they have, because then they'd be REALLY alone and helpless. What they need to realize is that truth is always inclusive, you can't lose what you already have. Courage is what's really required. (Though people do hold meaningless things as meaningful, too...)

    I'm getting another one now. About how people go "Aha, I know you now!" and point a finger at the world victorious. The world grins, shrugs and says "wow". Or maybe nothing at all. (he'd be all benevolent, although some might think of him as mocking..)

    Oh, and everything fits when properly understood.
     
  19. Cyperium I'm always me Valued Senior Member

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    I thought once that it was because of greed. The need to allways have more than he has, and the unwillingness to let go of what he has.

    A miniature form of wanting to "conquer the world" by getting more and more influence without loosing any that he previously had.

    The reality of it CAN be that complex, but often it is just because of the fear of loosing what little they perceive they have.

    We all get to learn to appreciate what you have, but many don't keep that lesson, and forget that they are in fact very lucky to have what they got.

    When this is forgotten, the "short term" belongings becomes very important, since they don't see the "long term" as they got used to it. It seems to them (I think) that the "short term" belongings are the only belongings they got (this includes toys, as in your example), therefor the strive to keep it that way.

    To some persons, this is realised, but the importance of the toy isn't surrendered, since any person is very reluctant to change their view on things, and it seems that maybe pride is holding them back from changing the view to the appropriate one (therefor the defiant look (no arguments could ever make them change their mind, cause they allready know that they have taking the wrong view, if you can't make up an argument that isn't in conflict with his pride that is)).




    Hence wisdom comes into the category of "long term" (in my "theory", however that term is loose since this "theory" is based on my actual life experiance (which is of course also "long term")).

    We have to learn to let things be, we don't go around constantly thinking of how we move our finger, wisdom works that way too, we don't allways have to go around making ourselves wise. Wisdom works, moving a finger works. It simply does (that isn't to say that we shouldn't learn wise things, sure we can move a finger, but can we play a piano without training?)

    There are allways some principles, that we shouldn't let be compromised, these principles are in some ways fundamental in us, it may happen that at a later time, these principles becomes less fundamental, and can be compromised, but that happens naturally when we have security in our principles so that the principle is covered in other ways (as I understand it), in other terms, we have found a better view on things.


    What I think is really happening, is that he get's a insight on how he relates to the world. The world is pretty big, it's hard to fully know everything of how the world knows. However, each principle found, is very very important (when it is felt as a 'real' principle, at work in the actual reality), as it is almost like magic, one of the magical strings that make up the world. I mean, how could you not be in awe of finding just the tiniest of these principles.

    I agree, it is also one of the reasons that even tiny principles are very important, as we know that they fit with the bigger ones.
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2006
  20. Cyperium I'm always me Valued Senior Member

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    Yes, you are of course correct in that sense. If some part of reality is replaced by other things, then it can be really really nasty. Like a blogg sitting at the the place vision would normally occur, you close your eyes and it is there yet! Arrgh...

    Must be pretty frustrating, and very frightning. Like "don't you understand the importance of me getting reality????". I guess it's hard to argue against a blogg...

    Hence the importance of never getting one in the first place, since they can appear to be rather devious (even evil, though they probably never have that expression...and if they had, oh man...).

    I think that once you get a blogg, it must be really hard to return to reality, it seems impossible I think. But then again, sometimes things seem impossible, but it works out anyway.

    However, this has really no importance in the sake of my thread. Perception change, perception is fluid (in a way), however, it carries with it, some qualia of reality. That what you see is reality. This "qualia" is less appearent sometimes, but sometimes it is what only matters at the moment, as I said, it gives meaning, because it is meaningful, and it gives strength because it is strong, and I think that a person could survive (in the sense of having meaning) in that qualia alone, as it bears meaning in itself and radiates it.

    In that sense, there are a world of meaning, inside a single leaf, fullfilling the need for meaning. Which is (I think) the basic need for us in order to accept our situation.
     
  21. Ogmios Must. learn. to. punctuate! Registered Senior Member

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    Cyperium,
    I have this theory about Moments of Despair. Obviously this happens when your world crumbles and you realize that you have no idea why stuff happens. You distrust all your models, and the world seems incomprehensible. This is one time when people actually listen, but are so easily complitely brainwashed, they grab the first thing they don't doubt and hold to that in complete terror to hold the despair back.

    One of these times is when people grow up. See, adults know everything, and kids don't have to learn anything; The parents will always take care of them. Then you're 18 and suddenly you don't know anything. Despair closes in from all sides, and you get pretty scared. Then something, anything that seems true, pops up from somewhere, and people sort of cling to it like a light in the dark. But you remain afraid to look for anything else, in case you lose this little you have gained.

    So, when you seem to yourself as weak, you grow stronger through any means that do not require "a look in the mirror", so to speak. By gathering influence and money and friends and so forth.

    I rather meant how reality just shrugs when you think you know something. There is no real change in the bottom line of reality. There's no chimes or trumphets when you learn something, like it wasn't an achievement but just doing what you were supposed to do (so long time ago..).

    Just thought I'd say that brain doesn't filter sense data, just the meaning of it. We PERCEIVE the world, but the brain creates categories like "a TV", "a Button" etc, so we actually perceive the functional world.

    Ever had the feeling that you're seeing the world, but can't make sense of it, like you see the bag, but can't recognize it as such? Like everything was strange, like you just saw it the first time?
     
  22. Cyperium I'm always me Valued Senior Member

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    Yes.

    You are very right.

    Ponder this situation:

    Everything you have learnt and know about, makes no difference, and can't help you, since you have lost the ability to understand it, then you take out the book of wisdom, only to discover you have lost the ability to read, then you gather all your belongings and discover you have lost the ability to appreciate them. Everything falls apart. What good does anything do without our abilities to understand and appreciate them?

    The safety of our abilities to do things makes us do things that would only count by the abilities themselves. Since it is by ability that we move the hand, think the thought, remember the memory, understand the basics.

    I wonder what this fear is based on. Perhaps it is the fear of getting lost, or the fear of loosing control? You have had the safety of your parents to cover for you, and you have wondered how they can make it through all those situations. Suddenly you stand there yourself, in their place, supposed to walk their shoes. It's here the abilities make their breakthrough.

    Cause by the same rule you move your hand, by the same rule can you get through all those situations your parents did. You never "learned" how to move your hand, rather you got the ability to do it.

    I learnt a new bodily ability when I was rather old. That was the ability to move my ears. The ability came with a sense of great freedom. I was free to move my ears. It wasn't that I had to learn something, it was like a hinder was taken away. The door just opened, and I was forever free to walk through it whenever I wanted (that isn't to say that it can never close, but now I can't imagine how that is ever done).

    A new ability is so integral to you, that it's something that is actually a part of you. You can feel joy that it is a part of you, you can relate to it in ways like if you were given somethings inner secret (cause in some way you have, it's inner secret is somehow a part of you).

    So, what I have learned is that whenever you come into a situation, there is a way to deal with it, and the ability to do that, is often the result of the years of experiance that you have in life. Cause however safe you have been in the past, when it comes to the real deal, you've got more resources than you might think. I guess the method is to use what you've got, you (not necessarily you Ogmios) mustn't expect yourself to do more than you got!

    The false expectations of themselves that people may have, are often their greatest hinder of actually achieving appreciable results.

    And, it may seem that you are alone at 18, standing there on your own, but you aren't, your parents still probably see you as this stumbling child you were

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    so don't worry about that. Also, don't forget that there are all sorts of people out there, alot of who can understand what you are going through, and help you when you feel scared or lost.

    I just want to add that when I say "you" in this post, it doesn't necessarily mean "you Ogmios"

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    I understand that you may talk of experiance which you are now past.

    Nice to see someone bringing this up in that easy manner.


    Of course reality isn't going to praise me for understanding it's concepts. But the feeling I get personally when realising I have stumbled into something very important is often in the likeness of trumphets and chimes

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    .
     
  23. water the sea Registered Senior Member

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    The way I see it, you are describing concentration.
    Something plain, but very powerful.
     

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