Improved non stop engine

Discussion in 'Pseudoscience' started by thinhnghiem, Jun 25, 2013.

  1. thinhnghiem Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    45
    Dears,

    Few months ago I had chance to post topic here about a non stop engine model. Now it has been improved and works well, and I would like to introduce my new model here.

    1. Tools and facilities:
    - The main component of this model is a wooden toy with dragonfly shape. Its head is a rectangle which is curved upward, with long tail
    - A sharp pillar
    - A medium sizes magnet (In attached screenshot it is the round and white piece)
    - Some tiny magnets

    2. Model
    - Stick the tiny magnets under the tail of dragonfly shaped specimen. The gravity of magnets make this specimen settles down toward the tail.
    - Then, touch the sharp peak of the rectangle head of the specimen very slightly into the top of the pillar. It makes the balance status of this dragonfly toy is very unstable. It is very easy to drop down as seen in attached screenshot
    - Put the medium sized magnet vertically and so close to the tail of the specimen so that their facing poles are NOT the same (i.e. north to south or south to north)
    - Keep the whole system in an insolated room, with all doors and windows are closed to prevent air wing influence.

    3. Operation:
    - The attraction force between 2 magnets makes the tail of the specimen is pulled down slightly, before it is up again. Then a new period starts with the up and down movement of the specimen tail, again and again etc.
    - The position of the medium sized magnet is adjustable so that it can give best result to the movement of the specimen. If the distance between magnets is so far, the force intensity is so weak to result in movement. Otherwise, the strong attraction force from the medium sized will also prevent the specimen from moving.

    I let my model there overnight to make sure that there is no stopping. And luckily it does not stop until now.

    I post my article here so that any interesting individual can follow and replicate my experiments.

    All of my expectation that you can contact me and replicate my experiment

    Thinh from Vietnam

    See my clip in Youtube at
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xhu6GunAsJs
     
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  3. exchemist Valued Senior Member

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    8,491
    Dear Thingphlegm,

    A cursory look at your video reveals the motion of your apparatus has a curious random element to it. Closer study reveals that the table on which it is standing is itself seems to be moving slightly, relative to other objects in the room. This does not look to me like a simple effect of camera shake. There is also a flickering background which suggests a ceiling fan or something. Your demonstration might be more convincing if your apparatus did not have "wings" which appear designed to be moved by the merest breath of air.

    Coming at at this from the direction of science, the principle of conservation of energy is a very powerful tool for analysing what is going on: disturbances of the air or the table are the obvious candidates. There is no way to extract energy from permanent magnets with a setup like this. I think we can be confident you have not discovered free energy in your bedroom!
     
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  5. Read-Only Valued Senior Member

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    10,296
    Since it's so finely balanced, the movement could be the result of vibrations from any source. Things like a train passing by within a half-kilometer, street traffic or even the footsteps of a person or people walking.
     
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  7. thinhnghiem Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    45
    Hi all,

    Thank you for your feedback.

    The sense of table moving results from my shaking hands when using the camera.

    If you look closely into the script, you can see that the fan is not working, since its wings stay motioneless.

    This experiment is done in my home, so I cannot setup a pure environment like vacumm room in laboratory. All I can do is close all doors and windows, and sitting far the table (even not to breath normally).

    Result is what you see in the script
     
  8. exchemist Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    8,491
    OK. However the principle of conservation of energy is far too well-confirmed to be overturned by this sort of setup. It is virtually certain that some form of disturbance from the environment is responsible for the motion. Sorry to disappoint!
     
  9. origin In a democracy you deserve the leaders you elect. Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    10,907
    Yes, I have to agree that you are wasting your time trying to defeat the 3 laws of thermodynamics. You are not the first to try nor will you be the last, but you need to know you are in a fight that you cannot win. The best (or maybe worst!) you can do is to delude yourself that you have won.
     
  10. thinhnghiem Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    45
    Hi exchemist,

    No external disturbance at all here. Say again that the room is isolated. The interaction between gravity of the dragonfly itself and magnet forces result in the vibration . The tail is heavier than the head. Then when the big magnet interacts with the small magnet sticked at the tail, it makes the toy move on. Then the gravity of the tail pulls it down again etc..
     
  11. exchemist Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    8,491
    No. It can't. All you have from that is a magnetic "spring" in which the magnetic forces take the place of a mechanical spring. A spring can be made to oscillate, but unless you have a totally frictionless setup the oscillations will eventually be damped by friction. It's just the same with magnets. There is no way you can extract energy from permanent magnets in this this arrangement, to compensate for the inevitable frictional losses.
     
  12. Read-Only Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    10,296
    Sorry, but it's impossible to truly isolate a room in your home.

    There are *several* reasons but here is just one very simple example: there will be convective air currents present due to heating/cooling coming from adjacent rooms and/or from outside.

    If that alone doesn't convince you (and it should), I can give you more.
     
  13. mikelizzi Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    34
    I just took a quick look at the video. It’s just a fancy pendulum. The magnet at the tip of the dragonfly is oscillating about a position of equilibrium. Gravity wants to rotate the tip clockwise. The refrigerator magnets on the box next to the dragon fly want to rotate the tip counterclockwise. (The refrigerator magnets have to be positioned at a distance such that they generate a counterclockwise force equal to the clockwise force of gravity). The instructions say touch the dragonfly, which moves it out of equilibrium. Then it oscillates. Very low friction. But eventually, like any pendulum, it will come to a stop.
     
  14. thinhnghiem Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    45
    I think whenever the magneticforce of magnet exists, the toy keeps vibrating
     
  15. Read-Only Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    10,296
    That's simply not true. It's obvious that you're lacking in knowledge of basic physics and all you've succeeded in doing is fooling yourself. Sorry, but that's a solid fact.
     
  16. Q-reeus Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,417
    thinhnghiem - having for some reason actually watched your YouTube vid, here's my suggestion that takes on board other's criticisms:
    First, eliminate suspicion there is some power source/switching mechanism inside that cardboard box magnet is attached to. So have magnet glued to a clear perspex stand or similar. It would also help to demonstrate that toy 'bird' has nothing hidden inside (say by shining a powerful flashlight through it from behind in a darkened room). With that done, place toy+magnet on a flat sturdy board in turn supported by a fairly thick layer of foam rubber. This reasonably eliminates mechanical vibration as energy source. Next eliminate draughts as source by encompassing above using say an inverted large perspex mixing bowl or construct an open at bottom clear plastic rectangular box; in either case such that entire rim seals against supporting board.

    If in above environment 'non-stop engine' is still rocking after 24 hrs - contact say 60 Minutes and demand special interview for big announcement!

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

     
  17. mikelizzi Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    34
    You don’t get it. thinhnghiem's setup already satisfies your suggestions. The thing that makes it osicillate is the fact that the restoring force of gravity and the restoring force of the big magnets are equal. Gravity pulls the object clockwise. The magnet pulls it counterclockwise. No other power source is needed. Neither the earth (the source of gravity) nor the big magnets need to move. Think of a typical vertical pendulum, a ball suspended on a string. Gravity is the restoring force for both ends of its oscillation. No mechanical vibration or air currents are needed to make a typical pendulum oscillate. You just push it away from its equilibrium position, let go, and it oscillates. For goodness sakes, you could make your own version of this device in 3 or 4 hours.
     
  18. leopold Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    17,455
    how true.
    lab scales can be so sensitive that they must be enclosed or the air currents will affect the reading.
    i also noticed what appeared to be "flicker" on the wall.
    fan blade shadows perhaps?
     
  19. Read-Only Valued Senior Member

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    10,296
    Yep.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    We once got a new guy in the lab - so he was given the rather mundane task of weighing a series of samples. Someone noticed what he was doing and explained the purpose of the enclosure. He replied (sheepishly) that he thought it was just a dust cover. <grin>
     
  20. Randwolf Ignorance killed the cat Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,174
    Oscillate? Maybe. Oscillate forever? No way in hot lava.

    It amazes me how many people appear to find conservation of energy such a difficult concept.
     
  21. Q-reeus Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,417
    Someone's not getting it. Check out the maths that describes a *damped* harmonic oscillator:
    http://farside.ph.utexas.edu/teaching/315/Waves/node9.html
    Like it or not, there must be losses present in 'non-stop engine' setup - friction at pivot point where 'dragon-fly' rocks on stand, plus wind resistance from rocking motion of 'dragon-fly' through air. Also tiny hysteresis losses in magnets as mutually interacting fields fluctuate back and forth. Thus to avoid the inevitable damping down to zero motion as per graphic in that linked article, there must be some source of *negative* resistance present that exactly cancels above listed loss mechanisms. What can such a source be? You can point to it and give some math backing as well? That I doubt. If thinhnghiem adopts my suggested protocol or similar (maybe just place a similarly balanced 'dragon-fly' - same period of oscillation - alongside other one, but without 'magnet power'), the argument will likely prove moot.

    [Just noticed the last line of your #10, which is acknowledging there is no perpetual motion going on. So what is your argument with me? Maybe you thought I was implying the setup was self-starting but that is obviously from #1 not the case and an initial shove is required, so it's a given the question is whether indefinite motion thereafter persists. Which is what I have addressed.]
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2013
  22. mikelizzi Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    34
    Oh. Looks like I misunderstood you and you misunderstood me. My apologies.
     
  23. Q-reeus Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,417
    No problem - it's mutual

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    . It's true thinhnghiem did specify in #1:
    However in order to observe, one must enter the room and approach. That means creating a wake of invisible air eddies that may not be noticeable but that a delicately balanced 'dragon-fly' is capable of responding to. Hence placing some kind of dome over the setup is likely the key mod that will settle things IF adopted. Walking in will additionally induce some ground vibration, but my guess is that would be a negligible factor. Just to be sure, soft bed pillow rather than earlier suggested foam rubber should provide adequate vibration damping & isolation.
     

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