Im not afraid to admit that i would have voted for the war in iraq...

Yeah. What's up with that? It went ahead then? That woman who was never a judge? His buddy or whatever?
Lovely cronyism. Well. That is one of the President's main powers. Appointing judges.
And then you have the old-timer judges who hang onto life with a fingernail so that they will only retire during the watch of their particular party.

Anyway. Not sure if the Supreme Court would have any say in an impeachment... Hmm. I would have thought it was congress all the way.

Well. According to Wikipedia, the procedure would be as follows.

The House of Representatives would make the vote for impeachment.
The Senate would make the vote for removal from office.
In the case of presidential impeachment, the Chief Justice would preside over the proceedings... Wonder what that means? What kind of power would he have?

The problem being that they're not really fleas. They might be primitive in many ways. And they sure don't have their shit together like the jews do. But, they are learning. And they are dangerous.

They are dangerous in terms of technology, for one. Not that they are technological themselves. But they can aquire technology which could cause devastation. That they haven't is either luck or thanks to vigilance from certain agencies. (Probably both.)

Also, speaking of understanding your enemy. I won't say that they truly understand us. But, they do have more insight into us than we have into them. They're winning this war because they have us by the short hairs. They topple a couple of buildings with jets and America goes stomping around the world like a wounded elephant. We're losing the moral high ground. The world is looking down on us. The administration is using the terrorist's cues to consolidate power and to settle scores.

They're manipulating us.
They've manipulated us into entering another war like Vietnam. A war with no clear enemy. And no clear objectives.
We'll see just what these fleas are capable of in the long run. They have fanaticism on their side. Americans get bored too easy.

http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=49217

I spent some time bashing partisans.
As to what you're saying about weak definitions of torture. I'll agree to that. I don't think that's the issue though. I haven't actually rounded up the definitions of torture and inhumane treatment, but they were made in the Reagan presidency and I doubt that kicking a Koran or taking naked pictures is included. Could be wrong on that though.

However, in that thread I objected not to torture itself. I can understand the efficaciousness of torture. But, rather, I objected to allowing our government to take torture into its repertoire. Chickens come home to roost and I'd prefer to not be tortured. How about you?

 

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Puh-lease-

Come on, Verty, you buy it?
They're 'manipulating' us or is your country's administration manipulating you into thinking so?

You think its only a matter of time before they get it together, well consider the amount of time that the Middle East has been bickering.
Its always been a hornet's nest that can't get its shit togehter. Then your country suddently gets all involved for a scant 60 years or so and then suddently it becoms a 'real' problem when its always been one? And you think its a matter of time before they get it together?

Want to know the reason why your good ol boys and girls were able to invade a country that had NOTHING to do with the terrorist attacks?

Because you are all so afraid and suspicious and angry and misinformed if not informed at all- in other words, emotional little bitches that believe everything people tell you so long as you're scared- that making Hussein pay for something Osama did to you makes perfect sense.

And I love the way you pussies ran to Wal Mart and stripped its shelves of its survival gear, I've got this clippping from the Times of this Wisconsin family all in gas masks trying to stuff their two year old into one about 3 times his size. Hillarous- you put a little baby powder in an evelope, stick it in the mail, or scare your precious herd with pretty colors orange, yellow and *snap* you can stop Manhattan just like that.

I wonder then who is manipulating who. I highly dobut its Ahmed.
Sorry, Vert, nothing personal (actually, I'm lying..it is personal, You Americans Are Hillarious) but Georgy's even got you calling them 'dangerous'.
That's one step away from "Evil Doers".

HA!

I'm telling you man, keep an eye out. Conthpirathy, conthpirathies!!

 

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A bit of both, perhaps.
The fact of the matter is that the US is stomping around the world like an enraged bull elephant because 19 people crashed some jets into a couple of buildings.
Period.

Now. Are you saying that the administration merely used that as an excuse to do what they wanted?
Maybe. Probably.
The results are the same.
And the manipulation is the same.
Terrorism empowered the administration in the same way that the.. (uh oh. Beware Godwin's Law) the Reichstagg Fire empowered the Nazi's. The difference being that the Reichstagg Fire was staged specifically for the purpose while 9/11 wasn't (maybe.)

Well. Until recently, they were fleas. Oil kinda expanded their importance.

As to the constant warfare over there. I'm not an expert on the middle east, but I don't doubt that the statement is relatively correct. It is at a crucial junction. Meeting of Asia, Europe, and Africa. Plus, the desert conditions cause people to fight over resources. But, it's only recently that relatively small groups of people are able to affect the global scale.

The shrinking world and all that.

I never said we'd be able to fix it. In fact, I don't think we can. My original point on understanding the enemy was more general. I think understanding this enemy would merely entrench us into their strife even more.

Exactly.
That's what I'm talking about.
And. Yes. I agree the manipulation comes not only from the terrorists. It comes from our very government. Witness George breaking out his 9/11 speeches everytime things start getting tricky.

Ahmed toppled the WTC.

I love you break out the "You Americans" at times like this. I still think you're more American than not. Where were you raised?

Ah. But I'm calling them dangerous because of what they're allowing George to do.
There's a difference.

(And Yes. I did mention technology as well. But, they've not had much success so far. I'm not too worried.)

It's all Shirley Temple's fault.
Nasty little bitch.

 

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Exactly.

 

Don't know who said tey dont understand how people can get riled by naked Arabs being "tortured by a poloroid camera..." quoted from te poster that may be above tis--unless aoter poster posts teir meeage in between.....-cause a name was't given. but who ever you are, i dont know if or trying to be funny or are serious. if funny--it ISN@T funny at all, and if serious, then you are a completely vile piece of shit, and i hope from te heart what happened to the people being tortured will one day happen to you. only then will you actually know the horror of such a that! for at the mo your depth is that of a cartoon cut out.

 

Yeah, hopefully! I'd much rather be "tortured" like those Arabs in the pictures than have my fuckin' head cut off!!!

Baron Max

 

pookie
you are not american?

 

in addition to the body count, iraq's infrastructure lies in ruins as a consequence of the invasion. $16 billion has been allocated by the iraqi govt for reconstruction thru the year 2007.

so ahh...we bomb the shit out of them for no reason at all and they have to pay for the damage?

i demand that you write to your rep and insist that war reparations be payed. there is a an easy precedent. iraq is paying kuwait a total of $52 billion for damage done during the kuwait invasion

go on. make amends

 

Come now folks.

Saddam Bluffed and had his ass handed to him.

All he had to do was say, "hey! Im sooo innocent! Come on down with all your cameras! Look at all my bases!"

And what did he do? He played games with the UN. He played games with the coalition. He took pop shots at U.S. Planes every chance he got.

He screwed himself.

Saddam could still be in power.

 

All that stuff didn't make damn bit of difference. The Bush 2 team deciced that Iraq should be invaded in the mid 1990s and tried to sell Clinton. They never cared whether or not Saddam had WMD except that it would make their invasion more difficult if he had them. They wrote that they needed a new Pearl Harbor to get America right politically for them to do what they wanted to do which was invade Iraq. 9-11 gave them that new Pearl Harbor. It was all over for Saddam the moment 9-11 happened despite the fact Saddam had nothing to do with 9-11.

Now Saddam is gone, good Riddance. Now, if only we do a regime change on these neocon creeps. I don't care how rotten Saddam was or why the neocons wanted Iraq, lying to America to get us into a war is not forgivable.

 

UMMMMmmmmm....check your history...Saddam did let the inspectors back in. And they found nothing except those rockets with a range of 40 or 50 KM beyond the restrictions. And then, the US warned the UN to remove the inspectors so they could invade and they did.

Except for a few deadenders, I think most now realize the invasion of Iraq had nothing to do with WMD.

 

Duendish:

Serious as a heart attack.

Are these POWS guinea pigs freezing in a vat of ice with 'scientists' testing the effects of anthrax on the human brain when its almost freezing? Are they being amputated, starved, burned with acid, zapped with lethal x-rays, cholera, TB?
Why, no! They're getting their naked pictures published in the newspapers and soldiers flush their precious Korans down the toilet, more or less.

Any form of imprisonment is torture, I'll give you that.
But I guarantee you the day that you're ever caught in a battlefield- and let's hope you are with your panties down- you'll be praying to God its Americans who caught you and not a Pakistani official or a Japanese one.
Ever seen "Karachi Cops"? It’s a show, comes on Wordlink. They slap women bloody on live television in full view over there and that's just for complaining.
Here you couldn't lay a finger on a prostitute without risking a lawsuit so quit getting so emotional calling me a piece of shit and booga booga for hurting your little feelings.
I don't buy that you're offended.

Vert:

Did you hear they're teaching Japanese students how to say "Duendy’s a whiny little bitch" and "Quinzubro" in forum English?
We’ve been global *grin*

But can't you see the US "stomps around the world" like one FAT elephant, wounded or not, irregardless of due cause?

The US wanted the South Americas and it took them by killing them with debt, look at Mexico and Guatemala and Colombia. It wanted Haiti and it took it, it wanted Vietnam and Afghanistan and it got the one and got its ego checked with the other.
I'm telling you that something as big as this country doesn't get manipulated into anything...... that's not as cunning as the Jew, of course.

And look how effective Bush is, its got you, invert nexus, talking about them evil doers being 'dangerous'

How are they the same if you're simply retaliating?
Given a whole day of me intimidating you into kicking me and on the 11th hour you finally tire and kick me back, how is you kicking me back manipulating me?

There's a report called "Downing Street" which covers a meeting between Blair and Bush (at some place called Downing Street) more than half a year before the U.S. declared war. Bush is not only already talking about plans to go there, inspectors or not, but in it you'll find a letter from the Iraqi official already complaining about U.S military action intimidating his country to war:

Who's pitching for a fight? When there are U.S bombers dropping bombs over Iraqi no-fly zones more than half a year before the so called 'war' and the good old media doesn't even squeak about it so that you never know that your country is lying to you, YOU, sir are being manipulated by your humongous government and not its so called 'enemies', in my opinoin.


Gustav:

Absolutely not.

Seconded, and its paid not payed.

 

Gendanken,

Fact is we don't exactly know what's happening to them.
And a point to consider is that they're not POW's. They're noncombatants and that's where the rub is.

Think about all the people being held down at Guantanamo for what... Is it three years yet?
Without any form of trial.
Without any form of oversight.

This is what's so fucked about Bush wanting to veto that anti-torture amendment. The bill doesn't accuse anyone of torture. The amendment merely reasserts the old standard of practices before Bush sidestepped them by taking all the prisoners down to Cuba.

Why would Bush object to that?
No one can say what's going on, but I do know that Bush doesn't want oversight into interrogation procedures.
He's even willing to threaten to veto an amendment that passed with an overwhelming 90-9.

Maybe next they'll start teaching about Nan King.
Stranger things have happened.

By recent, I mean the past hundred years or so.

Yes. But most of these are done subtly.
Vietnam was sort of a different story. Communism and all that. Also trying to fix up our mistakes for leaving France in the lurch when we pulled out of Korea.

Haiti. I don't know much about. Corrupt government, yes? Cia maybe?

Afghanistan was America's 'freebie'. After 911 we were given carte blanche. We used it on Afghanistan.

Iraq is pushing the good will of the world.

Now.
Do we care about the good will of the world?
Not necessarily.
Is that a good thing?
I'm torn.

As to manipulation.
I think, as I've said before, they feed each other.
Bush's administration would have passed with nothing to make it incredible (unless he had invaded Afghanistan and Iraq anyway which scuttlebutt says was in the works pre-911 anyways.) He would have just dicked around and made himself and his buddies richer and we'd have forgotten all about him.

911 gave them leeway to do a lot more than they could have without it.

Consider the old war on drugs. This was (and is) a pure violation of civil rights. So many of your personal rights under the constitution have been removed because of the war on drugs. Because of the terror inspired by the propaganda.

The war on terror is modeled on the war on drugs.

I'll say this, we're doing a lot better than I thought it would be when it first happened. I think that if Bush had wanted, he could have easily enacted a form of martial law after 911 and no one would have blinked. We expected it.

You're repeating yourself, dear.

Anyway. Aren't they dangerous? Not to the extent to which they're hyped up. But they have done things. Dangerous things.

I think you're envisaging me saying dangerous a bit too strongly.

[quote[How are they the same if you're simply retaliating?
Given a whole day of me intimidating you into kicking me and on the 11th hour you finally tire and kick me back, how is you kicking me back manipulating me?[/quote]

You really don't understand?
That's a tactic.
They're striking back. Yes. I don't deny it. I have no problems saying that in many ways they are vindicated in hating America. We've stirred far too many pots since WWII.
But, they can't strike directly.
They attack as they did.
Bring down the WTC and scare the piss out of everybody.
Cause the government to react. Stomping around like the proverbial bull elephant. And to further increase the injustices to various muslim nations as well as cause us to lose face in the eyes of our allies.

You really can't see that?
Girls.... Ha!

Yeah. I know.
But, the thing is that without the 'terror' the US public wouldn't have much stomach for it. Maybe Iraq.... with the support of the UN. But, not Afghanistan. And I've heard that Afghanistan was in the works as well. In fact, that it pretty much went ahead right on schedule.

These kind of things do make one consider the old conspiracy theories. It's 'dangerous' to fall prey to a conspiracy mindset though. Once the line is crossed, the conspiracies are everywhere.

Hardly unlawful. It was sanctioned by the UN.
Saddam did reap what he sowed. He was pulling a huge bluff and he was called on it.

Or he was a patsy (along with Osama) ala conspiracy theory zero.

These were all public and were caused by Saddam kicking out the inspectors. His tough luck for invading Kuwait. (Or course, ala conspiracy theory zero, he was given the go ahead by... someone. I forget who. Some women in the Bush Sr. administration.)

That's not true. The bombings were on the media quite a bit. Of course, they got boring after a while and had to be replaced with something that would bring better ratings.

Of course my government is manipulating me. Absolutely. I'm being manipulated from several directions. Government, media, corporations, you (kidding.) It's inescapable. One can only try to remain skeptical and keep a balanced viewpoint. And realize that every story has more than way to spin.

Liar.

Heh. On the way to work this morning, I heard an interview of Sulu (from Star Trek) where he talked about his youth in a Japanese interment camp. He said that his family was given 20 grand in restitution in 87. His father was dead already and it hit his father the hardest. Sulu thought it was like summer camp because he was so young.

What would you think of being held in an interment camp, Gendanken? It was summer camp, right? So you'd have no problems with it? They're not even kicking your Qu'ran.


Baron Max,

Got a point there, but the thing is that getting your head cut off is relatively fast. Especially when they've had practice.

The worst thing you can do to someone is leave them alive.


Duendy,

Yeah. He did. At the 11th hour.
That's why we didn't have UN support for the invasion.

 

Good on you invert_nexus for countering the bullshit spouted by the retards here...

It's funny how the retards claim that what Allied soldiers did to Iraqis in Abu Gharib didn't constitute as torture.

Funny, the US State Department has a different opinion:
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR511452004

I guess sleep deprivation, stripping, sexual humiliation, forcing prisoners to assume uncomfortable positions, beatings, and solitary confinement only qualify as torture when Westerners carry out the acts. Because we all know that Westerners carry out sleep deprivation and beatings 'humanely'.

I wish people bitching about invading Iraq due to human rights abuses would STFU and invade China, or even better, America.

 

vert

you dare contradict my gendy?

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saddam kicked out unscom cos of infiltration by cia agents

no fly zones were illegal
for instance....

The US and Britain have drawn increasing international criticism for the military raids, which according to Iraqi government sources have left more than 300 dead since 1998. The Russian foreign ministry condemned the August 10 strike, commenting: “Such action, carried out in circumvention of the UN Security Council, is a blatant violation of the norms of international law and does nothing but complicate the search for a solution to the Iraqi problem.” link

"It did not take very much to work out that the increase in bombing bore no relation to the protection of Iraqi citizens in the north or the south of the country," Sir Menzies Campbell, Liberal Democrat foreign affairs spokesman, said referring to the ostensible reason for the "no-fly" zones. He told the Guardian: "The obvious explanation was that air defenses were being degraded deliberately and that any provocation by the Iraqi military would be met with a disproportionate response". link

incursions were violations of iraqi airspace
iraqi's were provoked into defending themselves
iraqi air defenses capabilities were then degraded
shock and awe could commence

you deal with unrelated issues and attempt to assert a causative link
justify
or apologize to gendy
the temerity!

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yeah? citations please

link link