Illegal to have a home not connected to municipal supply grid?

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by Kittamaru, Oct 30, 2014.

  1. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    Because some politicians feel that without water service (for example) you can't have safe and sanitary waste disposal.
     
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  3. youreyes amorphous ocean Valued Senior Member

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    So that person living in this eco-house did not have a waste disposal program set up?

    So all she needs is to present them an environmentally friendly non-contaminating toilet system:

    http://www.envirolet.com/

    Flashes into a tank and uses no water system.

    And than she can have the tank be collected by waste disposal service, maybe.
     
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  5. Captain Kremmen All aboard, me Hearties! Valued Senior Member

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    It would be very difficult to do without a water service,
    There is removal of water to be considered as well as supply.
    You would need to be able to treat and remove used water from your property.
    Or continually recycle it.
    And what would you do with the water from your gutters?

    I can see good reasons for insistence on paid removal of household rubbish too.
    Some people would live like rats if they could do so.

    But insisting that everyone be on the electricity grid, is an unnecessary imposition.
    Some control freak thought of that one.
     
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  7. Bells Staff Member

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    This isn't pre-sewage pipe days in Old London Town where people were throwing buckets of poo and wee out the window, Leopold. Many people use septic tanks and even in Cape Coral Florida, the number of providers, sales and maintenance services available for septic tanks is quite numerous. So people obviously use them.

    The woman in the OP, however, is not using a septic tank.

    She is actually hooked up to the waste water facilities provided by the city/council to take care of her sewage disposal.

    and her only use of the city infrastructure has been to make use of the Cape Coral waste-water system to dispose of her sewage.

    So this isn't even about her sewage.

    This is about her not paying for water and electricity because her solar panels provide enough for her to use and her rain water tanks also provide enough fresh and clean water for her every day usage.

    And literally, this is about money. Because she is only using the sewage disposal system provided by the city and not the water provided by the city, she is not paying anything.

    Instead of having her pay for the services she does use (which is the sensible solution), the court ruled that she must either also sign up for and pay for services she does not use, or face eviction from her home if she is unable to dispose of her waste properly. For good measure, the court ruled that the sewage services provided by the city to her home was to be shut down - so now she actually does not have a way to dispose of her sewage. But here is where it gets interesting. She was never warned about it. Apparently she had appeared in the local media one day, who were interviewing her because she had been living off the grid. The very next day, the local city council issued her with an eviction notice from her home.

    The Special Magistrate of Cape Coral, Harold Eskin, has taken the stance that according to city code, Speronis can live without using city power, though her alternative source of power must be approved by the city; however her lack of running water has forced him to rule that she must hook up to the city water system by the end of March. Due to her use of the wastewater treatment lines to dispose of her waste without paying the city for the service, a practice Speronis has said she has no intention of changing, Eskin has ruled that Speronis’ sewage line be capped so that she can no longer use her toilet. In order to remain living in her home, she must prove that she has an alternative means to dispose of her waste in a sanitary manner. Eskin acknowledges that though he can order Speronis to hook up to the city’s water supply, he cannot require her to use it.


    This action came about after two years of Speronis living off the grid because, having deemed her experiment a success, Speronis shared her experience with a local TV outlet. The day after the dissemination of her story last November, a code enforcement officer for the city of Cape Coral served a notice of eviction on Speronis for living without utilities. There was no previous warning that she was in violation of municipal code, that she needed to hook up to the city water supply or that she needed to cease using the wastewater treatment system without paying for it, and there was no hearing before the decision to serve the eviction notice.


    One of the interesting things about this story is that she is not living fully off the grid.

    She is accessing the city's sewage treatment facilities to deal with her sewage and she isn't paying for it. And instead of having her pay for what she is using, I find the decision to force her to also pay for what she is not using to be bizarre and it just looks like the local city council is simply trying to raise revenue. Should she pay for the services she is using? Yes. One thing that struck me about this story is the way in which they went after her. You'd have expected that she be given a bill for what she was using and making use of and given a warning notice. Instead, she was given an eviction notice without even a hearing or warning or anything prior to that to let her know about what they wanted her to do.

    The narrative of this story changes dramatically in that regard..
     
  8. leopold Valued Senior Member

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    it is if you are using a septic tank.
    the effluent has to go somewhere.
    in 99% of the cases this is discharged on top of the ground in what is called a "discharge field".
    this, in turn, gives rise to all kinds of vermin from rats, roaches, flies and mosquitoes to viral diseases.
    no thanks, keep your cesspools out of my cities.
     
  9. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    21,646
    A politician was "just looking out for the good of the people." Without electricity smoke detectors won't work (people will die!!!) bathroom exhaust fans won't work (mold and mildew and unsanitary conditions, o my!) heating won't work (again, people will die!) people cannot play their TV's or radios to hear emergency broadcasts etc. Again, that old saying about good intentions come to mind.
     
  10. Bells Staff Member

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    There is nothing wrong with septic tanks. Lots of people use them even in suburban areas. Planting reed beds makes it even cleaner and safer to use. Lots of people use them here. Even in inner city areas and suburban areas.

    Aside from that, the woman in the OP was hooked up to the council's sewage system and was using it. The court ordered that it be shut off. Which is bizarre in and of itself. Instead of ordering her to pay for the city taking care of her sewage, they ordered that she no longer be able to access said sewage treatment system for her sewage.
     
  11. leopold Valued Senior Member

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    correct, when operating correctly.
    the major problem with septic tanks is the discharge field.
    plus there are restrictions on where these devices can be located, even on private property.
    for example, so many feet within an open body of water.
    this would be okay if the system was closed, no discharge field.
    this would require regular pumping to remove the effluent
    septic tank use has global restrictions as well as local restrictions for their use.
    a person would have to consult a local lawyer about this sort of thing.
    huh?
    hmmmmmmm.
    i've read the above snippet 3 times and i can't imagine why a judge would (or could) make such a ruling.
     
  12. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

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    Except that, as already noted, this isn't the case - she WAS using the municipal sewage.

    Simple - the pockets of the utility companies reaches far deeper than those of the citizens...
     
  13. youreyes amorphous ocean Valued Senior Member

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    So she collected all the piss and poop in one tank and threw it out in municipal sewage?
     
  14. Captain Kremmen All aboard, me Hearties! Valued Senior Member

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    Nanny only does it because she loves us.
    Nanny wouldn't smack you if you weren't so naughty you know.
     
  15. Bells Staff Member

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    No. She flushes her toilet and it goes down the sewage pipe to the sewage treatment plant like everyone's sewage. Have you never flushed a toilet before?

    Because it literally comes down to money. She was accessing a service for free and they did not want her to.

    When they found out that she was living off the grid (by using water tanks and using her rain water and powering her home with solar panels, but that she was using the city's sewage system for her sewage) by way of a local media interview, they went after her the next day with an eviction notice. Usually, as the article I linked above notes, there would be warnings issued and a hearing. They skipped all of those steps and went straight for the eviction notice. And then the judge determined that the council could not force her to use their electricity (her solar panels provided enough for her usage), but they could demand she use the sewage system and the city's water unless she was able to show that her water tanks were safe for her to consume and to show that she could dispose of her sewage safely and legally or she would have to hook up to the town's water supply. To ensure she made the decision they wanted her to make, they shut off her ability to access the city's sewage pipes - so now she literally cannot flush the toilet until she hooks up to the town's water supply. Once she does, then they will allow her to flush her toilet.

    The short of it is they don't want her to flush her toilet with rain water but with the city's town water because they are not making any money off her.

    Hence the eviction notice and trying to repossess her house.
     
  16. youreyes amorphous ocean Valued Senior Member

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    2,830
    Why you got be attacking me in every reply you post?

    To flush a toilet the water has to be connected, so how did it flush down to sewage treatment without her connected to the water?
     
  17. Kittamaru Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Adieu, Sciforums. Valued Senior Member

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    youreyes, quit yer trolling... you know full well how the toilet worked. She had water collection systems... you know, this thing called "rain?"... and quite probably a well (this deeeep hole you dig that finds an underground water table and taps it for fresh, clean water without all the funky chemicals and chlorine and such of city water) that had a pump to introduce pressure into her water pipes (and thus provide water to the house)

    And no, you don't need water to flush a toilet... you don't even need to have a "flushing" toilet at all:

    http://science.howstuffworks.com/environmental/green-tech/sustainable/waterless-toilet.htm

    http://www.dry-flush.com/
     
  18. Bells Staff Member

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    24,270
    She had rain water tanks.

    You know, rain..? Water that falls from clouds in the sky.
     

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