If you don't believe in evolution, you also can't believe in...

Be a man and don't hide your attacks to me in a long post to Raithere. I almost missed it since I never read your posts. I caught this while reading Raithere responce to you.

Be carefull buddy....I'm warning you....One more cheap shot at me and you'll end up either with the most painfull permanent erection or impotent, and if I were you, I would pray for the impotent result....Actually I would beg me to make you impotent right now to spare you the agony to come.

 

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small point about evolution:

"To claim that DNA arose by random material forces is to say that information can arise by random material forces. "

Natural forces are not random! In fact it is very difficult to generate true randomness. Regular patterns are generated by many complex systems, for instance, ripples in the sand of a riverbed. A hurricane is another example of a coherent, albeit, temporary self-sustaining pattern that seems to arise out of chaos.

 

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But Hurricane didn't arrise out of Chaos. Hurricans are one of the ways that pressures and energy in our system are dissipated. Just like when you walk barefooted in a river thinking that it's a peacefull riffle, and all of a sudden, you see the peacefull riffle turn into a 1000 feet turbulent drop. The riffle picked up enough energy and when it was just the right time, It dessipated it in an explosion. Nothing is chaotic, even chaos itself.

 

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Yes, Flores, hurricanes did arise out of chaos, I was refering to the chaos of modern chaos theory:

also:

So, irregular patterns can emerge from relatively simple, that is, non-god-like, systems. Patterns emerge from non-intelligent mathematical systems in computer programs, for example: fractals. Simple fractal mathmatics can produce the pattern of a leaf, or a coastline, or mountains. Ripples in the sand of a river do not automatically imply that they will break up later into rapids. The evolution of early life must have had something to do with these kinds of effects.

 

The above statement confirms what I have just told you. It's impossible to define nor understand the nature of Chaos, and it's indeed is an oxymoron, because if you can't understand nor define a phenomena, then you can't call it chaos, unless you have some definition and understanding of Chaotic behavior. Please note that comparison and analysis of phenomenas of unknown characteristics is of little help in understanding an overall process. When you bring things like hurricans and start calling them chaos, you are simply trying to apply the rule of ignorance in understanding the process.

What you mean by non-god-like. This implies that you know the definition of a god-like...Please clarify god-like befor you introduce a non-god-like terminology

You are a bit confused here. Not all rapids will turn into giant energy dissipator pools. The type of soils, the level of energy, the flow, the sediment load, the stream gradient, ect...are all factors that dictate the riffle pool spacing. It's not chaotic, it's extremly intelligent and predestined. Please consider some of my favoriate quotes in understanding the philosophy behind nature...and it's indeed far from Chaos. Consider Playfair's law that I was taught as a freshman in civil engineering. It dismisses chaos totally and I hope you accept it.

"Every river appears to consist of a main trunk, fed from a variety of branches, each running in a valley proportioned to its size, and all of them together forming a system of valleys connecting with one another, and having such a nice adjustment of their declivities taht none of them join the principal valley either on too high or too low a level; a circumstance which would be infintely improbable if each of these valleys were not the work of the stream which flows in it."

All other scientists that have worked in the field of the environment, agree.

"The river is the carpenter of its own edifice." by my mentor and master, the great Luna B. Leopold (1994).


"Eventually, all things merge into one, and a river runs through it. The river was cut by the world's great flood and runs over rocks from the basement of time. It sings a song of wisdom and life far greater than man can hear". Norman Maclean (1976)

 

I feel this quote is a poetic description of evolution, that life itself is the carpenter of the complex biosphere we now find ourselves in. Early life shaped earth as much as early earth shaped life.

By non-god-like, I mean simple. Godlike implies the complexity of rational thought. Creationism implies that the biosphere is too complex to have occured on it's own, and therefore an entity capable of understanding complexity is responsible.

Chaos theory reveals through experimentation, that, in a completely deterministic linear system like a computer, (which means no room for devine intervention, no ambiguity, pure non-intelligent logic), simple causes can create complex and unpredictable behavior resembling the effects observed in nature, such as river systems, and the structure of plant life. If this is true, then it is no longer the case that complex effects such as the biosphere of earth require equally complex causes (God), for explanation.

 

Why thank you O' wise one!

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Vienna, if anyone here deserves you, it is PM. But your attacks on PM are rapidly losing their entertainment value.

If you are going to criticize, please try to make an intelligent point. Your last post contributes nothing to the discussion, and is truly over the line.

 

HERE YOU GO, FEED YOUR PATHETIC IGNORANCE:

''Have We not given him two eyes..'' The Noble Quran 90:8

You dont even know your own Quran !! very sad indeed !

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.........................AND gave him 360 bones in his body !!!!!!

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Fair comment Repo

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I enjoyed doing that post though....He deserves it.

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Obviously, you are the ignorant one....The verse you bring doesn't use the word create. In addition, it confirms my point. The word give implies that we were at one point without and then we were given or assigned vision. We were not created with eyes, we were created from mud and at some point given vision.

Learn to understand, you [deleted].

 

Actually, when we get down to the quantum level the Universe is chaotic. The classical world only seems deterministic because quantum behavior is probabilistic.

~Raithere

 

I'm not going to even bother trying to correct your BS. Your arrogance is sickening, as is your slander of good science. I'm not going to bother with an explaination, since you obviously haven't paid attention to anyone else's (or read any of their sites which they gave you).

Go read "The Blind Watchmaker" or "Climbing Mount Improbable" by Richard Dawkins. Then you will realize that you are attacking a strawman of evolution, and know jack shit about the science that you are slandering.

And YES, people can see without lenses. Why are you laughing?
Their sight is nowhere as good as ours, however, they can see obstacles which are in front of them. What would you rather? Eyes with no lenses, or no eyes at all?

I notice that you posted a long list of eyes defects. GREAT! Just what is required to prove my point...

Would you rather to have deformed eyes and be short sighted (me), or no eyes at all?

Would you rather be colour blind, or have no eyes at all?

Would you rather have eyes which could only detect movements of light and dark, or no eyes at all?

 

you are such a sad cow, first you asked to show you where in the quran it says we are created with eyes, when I showed you, you jumped to another issue !!

Please stick to your main pathetic claim that we can see without eyes !!

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Oh please bells, such animals dont see without eyes, they SENSE, big difference.

Go back to school to learn the basics...did you ever passed your high school biology test ???

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do you see how much bad influence you are on people, afterall, you are the one that have perfected the system of insults by introducing terms like [deleted]....You obviously love to curse in arabic...

I had a couple of muslim students in college who had a huge problem of cheating on Exams...I tried to teach them that cheating is bad with no results. I even used Quranic verse to convince them that cheating is bad, but guess what they told me......The Quran allows us to cheat the infedels, and thus we shall sheat in English subject and shall be honest in arabic subject.....Reminds me of You PM.

Now go check your "God help you" fund before you distribute anymore. I think you have used the whole bucket on us and nothing is left for youself.

 

My dear Flores:

I apologized for using this bad arabic word in PUBLIC and in PRIVATE and you know it, now, would you apologize for all the insults you directed at me ?

I never use the F word in any debate, it is only enlightened 'civilized' westerners like bells who use such words !!