If we clone neanderthals, will they have legal rights?

Discussion in 'Science & Society' started by S.A.M., Apr 15, 2009.

  1. Hercules Rockefeller Beatings will continue until morale improves. Moderator

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    It is possible to enucleate a cell (ie. suck out the nucleus) and replace it with an exogenous nucleus from another cell. After all, this is the basis of cloning by nuclear transfer – fuse a donor cell (with donor nucleus) to an enucleated ovum.

    But that’s different to the hypothetical scenario being posed by the article. The guy in the article is suggesting that we can somehow insert his reconstituted in vitro DNA into a nucleus. He could try to inject it directly into the nucleus of a mouse cell but how would he first remove all the mouse chromosomes?

    And that brings up another glaring problem with the whole idea. Performing mutagenesis to convert human DNA into Neanderthal DNA, then stitching together all the fragments, is done on naked DNA. How does this guy propose to somehow convert his naked DNA into functional chromosomes that can be packaged into a nucleus?

    I guess that would be something along the lines of transferring a nucleus from the ovum of the patient into an enucleated donor ovum which still contain their mitochondria (without the mutation in question).
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2009
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  3. Burada Registered Senior Member

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    Neanderthals are neanderthals and chimps are chimps. I never saw a female chimp that really turned me on enough to breed with. But on the other hand, I haven't been looking around lately at the female neanderthal social network either. I imagine there might be a few walking around out there somewhere. I'll have to check it out.
     
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  5. Enmos Staff Member

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    Could, not would..

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  7. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    "Echromatization"? At condensation, maybe. How you'd get it all out for sure I've no idea. Probably end up with a neanderthal with a mouse tail.

    Do chimps and humans share much histone positioning? Maybe one could use conserved histones, although there's probably enough difference that the trial and error rate wouldn't really fly with NSF or NIH. Then again, there's the original problem - as you mention - of stitching the sequence together. Even if you used the chimp or human genomes as a guideline, how to match up the pieces that don't match - and which may be responsible for "Neanderthalness"! How much of this, too, I wonder, is methylation.
     
  8. domesticated om Interplanetary homesteader Valued Senior Member

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    Question (off topic from current discussion of realistic feasibility of pulling this off, or whether or not it's human):

    What is it exactly that would give any organism "legal status"?

    Lets say the organism is a 5 foot lizard with enough intelligence to be comparable to human intelligence (I think that's the meat of the OP's question here). Does it get legal status? Can it cavort with human society as one of its citizens?
     
  9. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    The idea that Church proposed is to start with a human genome and making the few changes required to convert it to neanderthal genome before inserting it in a chimp cell. The chimp cell would then be reprogrammed to an embryonic state and inserted into a chimp womb to gestation.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/13/science/13neanderthal.html?_r=1
     
  10. John99 Banned Banned

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    i think it would apply to any organism with comparable intelligence.
     
  11. John99 Banned Banned

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    it is impossible to say because neaderthal is a theory based on no evidence as to intelligence. primitive is primitive but does not necessarily mean less intelligent. its like i said here before, if you take a population of humans with ZERO knowledge, no advancements expect their naked bodies and NO established language then where would that leave them? i guess they would be neanderthals.

    does this close the case? most likely...yeeeeappp.
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2009
  12. Enmos Staff Member

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    Hmm.. that is something we haven't come across (assuming the aliens haven't landed yet).
    As far as I know you have to be human in order to have basic human rights. Legal rights is the next obstacle.
     
  13. Enmos Staff Member

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    How naive..

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  14. John99 Banned Banned

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    yeah i know. you know what no one else does. you are all knowing. i forgot you are god.
     
  15. John99 Banned Banned

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    forgive me sire. *john genuflects to the little boy king*
     
  16. Enmos Staff Member

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    You are a good subject John. Keep it up and we might one day fight evil side by side

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    Seriously though. Do you think it's a given that humans treat other humans (thus members of the same species) with respect ? Remember the Holocaust ? There are more examples.
     
  17. John99 Banned Banned

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    i dont know but if a lizard could read and write and had equal intelligence we wouldn't have much choice but to at least try and treat them as equal.
     
  18. Xylene Valued Senior Member

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    A reasonable point--let's turn it on its head. What if, say, an intelligent saurian-descended race turns up and says, 'hello, we're from Aldabaran' or wherever, and they turn out to be a far older and more advanced race than us (as evidence, they came to visit us, not vice-versa). Do they treat us with respect, or do they stomp all over us?
     
  19. Oli Heute der Enteteich... Registered Senior Member

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    The human race has an exemplary record of using "reading, writing and equal intelligence" an indicator of equality.
    Oh.
    Wait...
     
  20. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    Stomp. What else would they have come for?
     
  21. Xylene Valued Senior Member

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    Oh, I dunno...trade, tourism, spread their religion, look for gold, who knows? Either way, we'll probably find ourselves on the business end of their weapons eventually.

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    Just as the neanderthals found themselves on the business end of our weapons ca. 50,000 years ago.
     
  22. cluelusshusbund + Public Dilemma + Valued Senior Member

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    No they woudnt be confined in zoos... they woud be treeted mor humainly than apes... in that our esperiments on 'em woudnt be as harsh... an they woud be given freedom to live on a reservaton wit a huge fence aroun it... an ther ever move woud be recorded on video... an even if they wasnt considered human... i dout ther woud be many countrys that woud raize 'em for food even if they tasted real good.!!!
     
  23. Randwolf Ignorance killed the cat Valued Senior Member

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    No, we would probably qualify the places of confinement as "simulated natural habitats", not zoos. How primitive!
     

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