# If there is no energy, does time exist?

Discussion in 'Physics & Math' started by wegs, Jul 6, 2019.

1. ### billvonValued Senior Member

Messages:
18,685
Well, power has a specific definition, and there are ways to observe that do not transfer power - but all influence the system itself.
Energy is the ability to do work. Power is a measure of how much energy is released in a given time.

For example, a kilowatt-hour is a unit of energy. With a kilowatt-hour you can lift a metric ton about 350 meters into the air.

A kilowatt is a unit of power. With a kilowatt, you can lift a metric ton at a speed of about .3 feet per second.

3. ### kx000Valued Senior Member

Messages:
4,994
Why do you want to know if energy is not created nor destroyed? If anything that affirms an eternity, even if its impermenant.

5. ### SeattleValued Senior Member

Messages:
6,312
I think (I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong) if there was no movement of any kind that the concept of time would be meaningless and therefore could be considered to have stopped. Time isn't a thing. It's a measurement.

sweetpea likes this.

7. ### Michael 345New year. PRESENT is 70 years oldValued Senior Member

Messages:
9,695
Regarding TIME try to obtain a book called

TheI Inventionof Time and Space by

Patrice F. Dassonville

whichg goes into great detail of why time does not exist

sweetpea likes this.
8. ### sweetpeaValued Senior Member

Messages:
1,329
Stopped??
Where do things ''move'' and did that ''Space'' exist already ? Does that ''space'' stop existing when things ''stop'' moving?
When talking about a body has ''degrees' of movement'', that body has to exist for it to move in the first place.
A body takes up space, was that space there already existing?
I just say space and time started together, saves hurting my head.

Last edited: Jul 8, 2019
9. ### TabbyStarRegistered Member

Messages:
74
So many opinions...better put, ideas! I enjoy reading replies from others...pretty satisfying!

To me...time =rate of change. Without change, there is really no way of measuring past, present and future. If something changed...it can be measured as a before and after. Thus the man/woman construct of, "interval" can be applied.

I have some non mainstream thought ideas sometimes. One is as follows. Brace yourselves.. Time travel ideas evolve from it.

Having set the stage already by mentioning "rate of change", what would (could) result if it were controlled? Fairly recently IBM has manipulated atoms to arrange them in an order that describes/spells...lol..."IBM". Very remarkable step in my opinion.

Now what if an entity (somewhere in the cosmos) could do more than that? Entity has the means and the information of all atomic structures? The means of rearranging them at will? Completely and accurately. Every atom...neuron..."snap" "bing" "bang" done! Yes we are likely talking about an advanced civilation beyond our comprehension (kardashev type 4?, 5?). If an advanced entity can manipulate atomic structures at will...can they also control time? At least locally and as it (time) is perceived?

I am of the opinion yes. Example, locally I am in a closed room. Memories of past events...thoughts of present and predictions of future (although low odds of accuracy). Advanced entity (with the means and the information of all atoms and neurons) uses the power to rearrange all, locally, physical elements to a state...say...24 hours prior. What do I perceive? Yesterday in my opinion. Indistinguishable from the actual yesterday I lived already but do not recall.

Ok...perhaps the immediate reader response is, "that is only within your room...all that are external to your room still experience rate of change and time ticked forward". Valid point. What if advanced entity controlled and rearranged all nearby...outside my room? Rearranged the local solar system completely? The galaxy...cluster...observable universe?

At what point does, "time" (as perceived locally or locally extended further out) cease to exist or be identified as rate of change?

I typed a lot. Not even sure my mental though even was expressed in a way that can be understood. I do that sometimes and apologize. Also, for so many words.. I do that too!

I will need to back read it to see how crazy it sounds.

Wrapping up though...time travel paradoxes aside...forward arrow of time principles aside...including entropy and 2nd thermo laws...is time simply rate of change? If rate of change can be manipulated thoroughly...can time be as well (manipulated)? At least as it is perceived locally (through various levels of locality)?

Just my 2 cents

Last edited: Jul 8, 2019
10. ### QuarkHeadRemedial Math StudentValued Senior Member

Messages:
1,682
I don't think so, no - time is a spacetime coordinate (strictly it is expressed as $ct$, to make calculations easier - it has the same dimensions as the other 3 spatial coordinates).

Coordinates don't "measure things" they locate them. In spacetime the 4 coordinates (of which time is one) refer to an event - a location in spacetime.

11. ### Michael 345New year. PRESENT is 70 years oldValued Senior Member

Messages:
9,695
The word you are looking for in this situation is AGE

AGE is NOT TIME

Arbitrary moment to another arbitrary moment = AGE

12. ### TabbyStarRegistered Member

Messages:
74
I understand your comment. Question though. How do you relate or reference, "age" relative to the arrow of time? If you select a point then select another point (picture a linear line with an arrowhead at one end representing flow/direction)...is the gap between points not synonymous with time...or age? I am trying hard to follow this. Do you mean age is like an external, master clock...perhaps outside our observable universe? Thus implying if rate of change, or time as we refer to it, moves forward...pauses...or even reverses internal to observable universe...the master clock (age) is unaffected?

This is deep for me...will ponder it more

13. ### wegsMatter & Pixie DustValued Senior Member

Messages:
6,819
Yea, that took me a lot of time to read it. Lol jk!

I’ve been reading that time seems to hinge on energy being present so if there is zero energy, then there would be no time. So, not sure time could be manipulated.

TabbyStar likes this.
14. ### TabbyStarRegistered Member

Messages:
74
Over the last 6 months I have been trying to crash learn the 3rd thermo law (first two also). I was under the impression early on that entropy would cease, at the atomic level, around absolute zero temperature. Perhaps time would cease too. However, I more recently read somewhere that some atomic activity is still expected at zero. So I am back to square 1 in understanding it to my satisfaction (at least as far as entropy possibly stopping).

15. ### Michael 345New year. PRESENT is 70 years oldValued Senior Member

Messages:
9,695
Thanks for a sensible question

To dig down a bit deeper

The whole Universe exist in a single moment called NOW

There ares no other NOWs in existence

There is no arrow of time because of the non existance of TIME

Change occurs, mostly entropy, giving the impression of movement which we then assign a direction, which is purely arbitrary

I am going to guess the above will spawn more questions

Good luck with pondering

16. ### Michael 345New year. PRESENT is 70 years oldValued Senior Member

Messages:
9,695
AGE would cease because no change occurs hence nothing to measure between arbitrary moments

Since TIME does not exist then nothing there to cease

17. ### TabbyStarRegistered Member

Messages:
74
Yeah I am having difficulty in the, "time does not exist.. " part. Bear with me. If an atom decays then there was a before decay and after decay state. The interval between is time right? How does it not exist?

Am I on the right track regarding 3rd thermo law? If no atomic activity...then no rate of change...hence no time?

Messages:
26,415
Time is a difficult concept, and you are not alone in finding that concept difficult to comprehend.

TabbyStar likes this.
19. ### wegsMatter & Pixie DustValued Senior Member

Messages:
6,819
I believe that when time moves forward entropy increases but I don’t think it can ever decrease. So my question is - if there is suddenly no energy, hence no time...does entropy continue within the system? It’s confusing to me.

(I started a thread in General Philosophy about entropy if you want to take a look. I should reread to see if this was specifically brought up. It was a good learning session, overall.)

TabbyStar likes this.
20. ### TabbyStarRegistered Member

Messages:
74
Tx Paddoboy! I watched a Sean Carrol youtube vid months ago and forgot to follow up with others. Going to do that today.

Messages:
26,415
My definition of time is simply the measurement of intervals between sequential events. Time as we know it, started at the BB, and contrary to what others have said, the observed changes and movements that do occur, occur "IN" time, not specifically because of time.
But then again, as I said, defining it is difficult.

TabbyStar likes this.
22. ### TabbyStarRegistered Member

Messages:
74
I appreciate you reinforcing time starting at BB. It helps me greatly. I am trying to learn but always be consistent with popular mainstream understandings like you have offered more than once...others here too! I only have so much time in life. I got a late start delving into science. Basically after the kids grew up lol. I do not want to go 2 steps forward and then 3 steps rearward...at least not if I can avoid it.