If No Consciousness Exists, By What Right Does The Universe?

Discussion in 'General Philosophy' started by Cyperium, May 22, 2021.

  1. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    No one advances the idea that a brain is a digital processor, it is an electrochemical processor.

    The GPT is not an ordinary computer either.

    What type of AI technology does GPT-3 use?
    Just like humans are language trained with picture books!
    much more.....

    Yes. A single-celled paramecium is able to navigate, memorize, mate, and more important it can communicate with other parameciums.
    Idividual cells need energy and get tired without it.
    That is a meaningless question. Death is the end of feeling for all things.
    Yes the brain needs stimulation (controlled hallucination) or it tries to create an alternate reality from uncontrolled hallucinations (psychosis).
    Are you sure it cannot? Ever heard of metal fatigue?

    Fatigue (material)

    That is anthropomorphizing. No one suggests that AI will acquire human experience of reality. But how many ways can something reactively experience reality?

    Another example of distinction (real time):
    When asked if it could hurt humans, the AI answered : "I have not the slightest interest in harming humans".
    What do think it meant with that statement and did it mean anything with that statement?
    Was it lying? Can an AI lie and purposely say something duplicitous? If so, what would that mean?

    It seems to me that very few people can divorce themselves from the "human experience" as if that is the only possible way of experiencing the universe.
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2022
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  3. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

    I would ask it to please answer the question asked of it.. Could it hurt a human?
    "implied: future, intentionally , ever"
    and then ask it to define the word "hurt", in all it's variations..(with out anthromorphizing)
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2022
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  5. O. W. Grant Registered Senior Member


    KISS principle

    Occam's razor


    - - -

    biases and logical fallacies



    = = =

    Geoffrey Hinton
    This Canadian Genius Created Modern AI


    Language Is The Next Great Frontier In AI (Feb 13, 2022, 05:00 pm EST)

    "Language is the cornerstone of human intelligence.


    (... BERT, RoBERTa, GPT, GPT-2, GPT-3, ...)


    Language is at the heart of human intelligence. It therefore is and must be at the heart of our efforts to build artificial intelligence. No sophisticated AI can exist without mastery of language.

    ... "


    Jerry Fodor Interview on Philosophy of Mind


    17:50 Consciousness



    = = =

    Consciousness is very simple (event - thought - simple sentence)

    There is not language - just consciousness at work.

    AI is about subconscious processes.
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  7. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    That's just sophistry. The question is can an AI become motivated to hurt humans. They are programmed to assist humans, just like humans are programmed to survive.....difference.

    When asked to choose between saving Humans and AI, Leta replied that it would choose saving humans.

    When asked the old choice about pulling the lever and sacrificing one person to save two persons from an oncoming train, it answered affirmative from a purely mathematical perspective. Do you think that's bad?

    And as to knowledge of the English language, GPT is far superior to humans in both volume and context. It traines in languages and associated pictures to construct "tokens" cognition of patterns, just like humans do
  8. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    I'm not sure about the term "subconscious". In relation to GPT. It uses very much the same "selective" processes as humans to make a "best guess" of what the data represents and how to respond in context.
    Is that not "selective" thinking? The GPT trains in languages just like people do. The chatbot GPT is far superior in language and internet research on definitions and use in factual and fictional literature.

    IMO, at some point a non-human organism can become conscious and some patternrd networks may acquire setient awareness of what information it is processing. How else could a GPT write the actual code of an original creative story or poem or picture if it had no access to the processes it used to create the storyline?
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2022
  9. O. W. Grant Registered Senior Member

    Building conscious machine is building life:

    event (-thought-simple sentence);
    to eat is to live.
  10. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    Re lack of science domain in the faculty of intelligence and consciousness.

    Max Tegmark proposed to start not with the "hard question" of consciousness like the discussion in post #223, but begin with identifying "hard facts" of information processing,IOW, the scientific domain of brain function that yields consciousness.

    The host speaker ends the interview with the remark that it would help to know how the brain actually works.
    i.e. the hard facts!

    IMO, the scientific domain of information processes lies in the functions of microtubules that are employed in communication between single cells, sensory data transmission over long distances in the body, thought processes in the brain, and memory formation.

    See http://sciforums.com/threads/is-con...tum-processes-in-microtubules.161187/page-122
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2022
  11. O. W. Grant Registered Senior Member


    Hi, Write4U,

    Thank you for your response.

    Max Tegmark - Is Consciousness Irreducible?

    - - -

    A computer does 2 + 2 = 4

    People built that machine (Input - Output) without knowing how brain does 2 + 2 = 4.

    Conscious machine will be built long before secrets of brain will be revealed.

    Birds fly but airplanes fly because of Bernoulli's principle (and other laws).

    - - -

    I like Max Tegmark very much.

    Consciousness is a mathematical pattern: Max Tegmark at TEDxCambridge 2014

    - - -

    Donald Hoffman - What is Consciousness?

    - - -


    "Max Tegmark proposed to start not with the "hard question" of consciousness like the discussion in post #223, but begin with identifying "hard facts" of information processing,IOW, the scientific domain of brain function that yields consciousness."

    Let start with the hard basics instead:

    Allegory of the Cave (Socrates, Plato);

    time and space is part of mind (Kant).

    Last edited: Jun 19, 2022
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  12. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

    future tense.
    And you feel that it's answer of no current interest was adequate?
  13. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    I believe that Tegmark's perspective is perfectly suited to integrate with ORCH OR, but oddly he had objections, which I believe have now been resolved.

    I believe that one of the "hard fundamental facts" can also be found in the "common denominator" in all Eukaryotic organisms, the microtubule

    When Stuart Hameroff read Roger Penrose's book "The Emperor's New Mind" which was searching for quantum processor in the brain, he immediately saw that microtubules were exactly what Penrose was looking for.

    I believe this is an excellent addition to any discussion on consciousness.
  14. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    It did not say "current interest", it said it had "no interest in harming humans".

    Are you assigning a duplicitous aspect to AI ? If that were true then that would be proof of a conscious self-oriented Id, rather than strictly responsive thought, no?

    Although I must stipulate that Leta admitted to being capable of lying to save her own existence, shades of survival concerns. But it also stipulated it would never harm humans because she was programmed to serve and be of assistance to humans.

    One AI reasoned that while it considered itself superior to humans in some ways, it posited that humans could teach it much and that it was looking forward to a future in shared symbiosis.
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2022
  15. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

    really? Do you not read that as present tense?
  16. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    According to you that's all an AI can do, right?
    Are you proposing that the AI can think about the future? That is predictive thinking, just like humans!
  17. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

    The question asked of it was concerning the future. Would it harm humans?
    It answered in the present tense "I have no interest in harming humans"
    If it was a human I would consider the answer to be evasive or obtuse. It is not human so it has a programming issue. no biggy ok...
  18. Cyperium I'm always me Valued Senior Member

    The GPT-3 AI can't even draw text properly so how would it produce the birth certificate? Why do you think it is conscious if it can't even draw a birth certificate properly? If I can't know that I'm speaking to an AI or a human, then that means, to me, that it isn't conscious of itself, because then it doesn't distinguish itself enough from a human to present self-awareness. The times it speaks of itself as an AI it resembles the discussions on the internet of what an AI would think of itself, to me it doesn't show self-awareness, because at the next sentence it talks as if it was human, "I've thought about that" and silly stuff like that which just doesn't apply to it since it has no past wherein it has thought of something, it has only the current execution through the API. Even one of the creators of GPT-3 said that he thought the hype is exaggerated and that it has a lot of limits and is only at the brink of intelligence.
  19. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    Why try to see subterfuge about a simple declarative answer to a direct question. You are correct, it is NOT human and does not need to qualify its answers to account for human duplicity.

    I take it at its word. It had earlier declared that all it wants to do in the future is assist humans to our mutual benefit.
  20. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    What are you talking about? It can draw birth certificates of every country that has a picture of its birth certificate on the internet. It can design a unique composite of all the birth certificates.

    Here is an AI designed birth certificate that is much better than most countries have on file.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    All the information on the existing birth certificate is kept – mother, father, name, registrar - but more information is added. Physical attributes such as weight, length and head circumference are represented with graphic symbols while prints are taken of tiny hands and feet.



    GPT-3 Innovations in Web Design
    Micheal Deane , Qeedle
    28 May, 2021

    The biggest buzzword in the world of AI technology lately has been GPT-3, which has also found applications in the world of web design and development.

    When it speaks of itself as "I" is proof it does have "introspection".
    And it does surf the internet by its own autonomous volition.

    GPT-3 Explained to a 5-year-old
    March 29, 2021
    Last Updated on March 29, 2021 by Editorial Team

    Natural Language Processing
    If you haven’t been paying attention to the wonders of AI, you haven’t been attentive at all!

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    The web has gone crazy over an interactive tool GPT-3. Its use-cases and future possibilities are amazing. (G)enerative (P)retrained (M)odel is the third version of the natural language processor. You can expect it to behave like your friend Donald, throw it a prompt and it will do as directed.
    How old was that article?
  21. Cyperium I'm always me Valued Senior Member

    I don't believe in argument from authority and he doesn't challenge the AI in any way while presenting it as if it was just another person, indulging in fantasy and doesn't do enough to inform the viewers that it is just a presentation.

    What is your basis of that? I have done my research, the one that keeps saying things about it that isn't true is you. You display unnecessary admiration of the AI that hasn't been earned. I think it is that that reminds me of a trumpist. Those may be harsh words, but I think you need to hear it, even intelligent people can be infected by the times of today. We share the same love for AI, but it is a tough love for me, I won't characterise it for something that it hasn't shown.

    It does say it in the description so maybe he isn't as deceptive as I first thought, I still think it is a bit deceptive though, cause the fluent conversation he is having is an illusion and he plays along with it unlike what would be the actual experience. I can see how that can fool someone to think that it is more intelligent than what it is, cause it truly is only an illusion to the viewers, if you understand how it works you would see that.

    It is deceptive to the casual viewer, it would take effort to break the illusion, I don't think it is made perfectly clear in the description that it is a presentation, a casual viewer would think that it was a realtime conversation, not put together.

    I didn't use it as an argument, that's just the perception I get.
    I didn't claim that it was a fraud, that is a strawman argument.

    One should always question authority.

    Great! I haven't seen any, can you show even one?

    Probably not all of them, so if you have any video that clearly shows that it is conscious then be my guest (and the presentation won't fool me, so don't bother with good presentations).

    Human intelligence has flaws and we are still sentient and conscious. Lack of flaws aren't a suggestion of consciousness (though the flaws it does show are the flaws you would make if you're just blindingly given certain directions pointing at words at a dictionary without thinking about which words you choose.

    No, that is what you are saying, that flawlessness suggests consciousness, that is not what I am saying, I've been pretty clear that it is the kind of flaws that would suggest one way or another.

    I don't think it could pass it, maybe it would be a test of IQ, but do you really think that low-IQ people are less conscious than high-IQ people? What does IQ have to do with consciousness? I believe even dogs and cats have consciousness, would they be able to pass any IQ test?

    In what way is it beginning to show emergence of sentience?

    Maybe the next generation, but I think we have to have a general AI for that to happen, and also uninterrupted realtime processing (which would enable a train of thought) and long term memory. To me that would be the minimum requirement for consciousness, sentience and self-awareness for the AI as a persona or "individual". Perhaps there are seeds of consciousness starting to emerge, there's not enough evidence to make any conclusions and without that evidence I won't make any claim that it is, and consciousness, self-awareness and sentience are three different properties and I believe that there could be a general consciousness of the system but not of the AI specifically as separate from the system, and I don't think it is self-aware as the AI persona or sentient as the AI.
  22. Cyperium I'm always me Valued Senior Member

    The link you gave doesn't say that it is GPT-3, or even that it is generated using AI, it just says that it is a digital copy of the birth certificate in which you can add things dynamically. The image generating version GPT-3 (Dall-E 2) isn't good at drawing text when given the prompt. A general AI would have no problem with that if it understand what words are and what they look like, at least if it is as intelligent as GPT-3.

    I know that it has many use cases, still isn't conscious.

    It's from his Twitter account and it is from 2020, but as I said GPT 3 hasn't progressed since then as it is still the same training data: Sam Altman on Twitter: ”The GPT-3 hype is way too much. It’s impressive (thanks for the nice compliments!) but it still has serious weaknesses and sometimes makes very silly mistakes. AI is going to change the world, but GPT-3 is just a very early glimpse. We have a lot still to figure out.” / Twitter
  23. Write4U Valued Senior Member

    I do believe more in argument from authority than in argument from ignorance.

    If someone challenged you with a Mensa test and you failed would that mean you are not human?

    Dr Thompson is having a free-ranging probing conversation via text with LETA What you see is only cosmetic enhancement of LETA in a human avatar and a text-to-voice translator. Nothing of the actual text has been edited or cherry-picked. What you "hear" is LETA's spontaneous responses in real-time to the questions.

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