If Election result 2016 declared illegal, what then?

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Quantum Quack, Aug 23, 2018.

  1. pjdude1219 screw watergate i want to know about zaragate Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    15,949
    did you even read the post you responded to? again if some did anything to the extent of ignoring or neglecting their official duties they could be impeached for high crimes or misdemeanors, yes even golf. the high in high crimes and misdemeanors doesn't refer to more severe actions but to the higher standards we apply to those in public office.
    https://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/High Crimes and Misdemeanors

    from the source
    it should note that both trump and pence can and should be impeached under such a viewpoint. trump for incompetence pence for violation of oath of office for his pushing evangelical protestantism.
     
  2. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  3. billvon Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    14,178
    Yes.
    No, you cannot be impeached for golfing. Period.

    You are likely trying to make a point. Why not just say what you mean, instead of the above bullshit?
     
  4. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  5. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    26,933
    Cash, and commercial buildings, and monetarily valuable (there is an established market) "intelligence", are involved.
    Advice? That's worth whatever you paid.
    Which has since, in Citizens United, been extended to include protection for money and monetizable stuff. We noticed.
    But foreign government and agent contributions are subject to specific prohibitions, including "gifts" and "titles" and the like, which are not "monetizable". And foreign governments or agents of same are not protected when engaging in hostile acts or criminal behavior - such as computer hacking, or marketing of contraband.
    And there are limits on what can be provided to a campaigning candidate, specifically, by anyone.
    Offering extremely valuable intelligence gathered by agents of a foreign government in return for betraying the interests of the United States and promoting the interests of that government or its wealthy supporters would qualify, right?

    The restrictions on criminal enterprise, meanwhile, are outside this discussion entirely. Plans to launder Russian money or protect Russian organized crime for personal gain are not protected by the First Amendment, for example, even if verbal only.
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2018
  6. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement



    to hide all adverts.
  7. parmalee peripatetic artisan Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,396
    Yeah, I'm kinda bewildered by people who consistently downplay or dismiss the significance of foreign meddling in elections. Or they turn it into something innocuous or benign--you know, like how "influence" becomes "advice" or "counsel."

    The aspect I don't see being discussed all that much (or maybe it is, and I'm just overlooking it) is public perception. The U.S. has been plagued by low voter turnout for quite some time now, and can you really fault people for abstaining from voting when elections themselves are compromised, yet the results go unchallenged ?

    Robert Reich published this--https://www.alternet.org/its-not-enough-impeach-trump-his-entire-presidency-should-be-annulled <<<-- today:

    Honestly, I'm not entirely sure that it does "logically follow," but Reich always seems so sure of himself--and he says "let me explain" a lot.

    Anyways, that goes a whole lot further than what anyone here is suggesting.
     
  8. pjdude1219 screw watergate i want to know about zaragate Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    15,949
    perhaps but you clearly didn't understand it.

    and your wrong
    no i did make a point one you've now flat out ignored twice because you prefer talking points and misrepresentations. its not bullshit your just being lazy in your thinking. the thing is you can be impeached for non criminal things. like ignoring ones duties. this is the third time i'm going to have said this do not ignore it again. if you fail to do your job as an elected official to do other things like golfing you can be impeached for it. that would be viewed as incompetence or such. your making a strawman argument. stop it. when i say you can be impeached for golfing i'm not saying you can be impeached for liking golfing or going often. i'm saying if you are golfing instead of fufilling ones duties than yes you can be impeached for golfing. again if golfing is your vehicle for your incompetence or failure to uphold your oath of office than you damn well better believe you can be impeached for it. the only bullshit here is your rather lame initial argument and defense of your complete lack of a point.
     
  9. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,219
    That you could be impeached for neglecting your duties of office is not at all the same as being impeached for golfing. One does not get convicted of things that are not crimes.

    You would help your case - for example, billvon might not ignore your rhetoric - if you were not quite so hyperbolic with them.
     
  10. pjdude1219 screw watergate i want to know about zaragate Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    15,949
    your missing the point just as he is. and i'm willing to bet just as intentionally as he is. you don't have to commit a crime to be impeached. which is the point i'm making.

    there is nothing hyperbolic about my rhetoric. just because the both off you don't like what I'm saying doesn't make it extreme.
     
  11. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    18,314
    So hey I have argued this point before but will do it again...
    Say for example we have the following scenario:

    1000 Australian walkers volunteer to door knock in support of the Democrats Presidential campaign. They pay for all their own expenses and receive no remuneration. They flew in from Australia with the sole purpose of effecting the election outcome.
    1000 Russian walkers volunteer to door knock in support of the Republican Presidential campaign. They pay for all their own expenses and receive no remuneration. They flew in from Russia with the sole purpose of effecting the election outcome.

    Have any laws been broken by either the Australians or the Russians?

    If so, then there are a heap of Aussies in a whole lot of trouble....
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2018
    sculptor likes this.
  12. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    18,314
    So we have this farcical situation which leads me to believe that the Mueller investigation team is more focused on other issues and that allegations/evidence of Russian meddling/collusion in the election is a smoke screen hiding other more important investigations.
     
    RainbowSingularity and sculptor like this.
  13. sculptor Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    5,296
    [QUOTE="Quantum Quack, post: 3538569, member: 13925".

    Have any laws been broken by either the Australians or the Russians?

    ...[/QUOTE]

    short answer
    NO

    in a nutshell:

    AMENDMENT I

    "Congress shall make no law ... abridging the freedom of speech, ..."

    When you are on our soil, you are covered.
     
  14. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    18,314
    The fact that Cohen has rejected the notion of a future Presidential pardon and rolled over instead is also very telling...IMO
     
  15. billvon Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    14,178
    Keep in mind that Nixon wasn't impeached for the Watergate burglary - he was impeached for the cover-up.
     
  16. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,113
    "you"being a naturalised US citizen ?
    as residents are routinely deported for crimes ?
    a non naturalised US citizen has no free speech rights on US soil.
     
  17. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

    Messages:
    35,525
    There is a Federal Election Commission, but the presidential election, technically, is a series of statewide elections. There are no federal elections; as an American, the highest valence of my citizenship at which I vote is state.

    Compare to a statewide ballot initiative; there is no federal analogue. The presidential elections set off a series of state rules about electors, who gather for the nearest thing to a national election we have. There is no general election that would receive uniform vote in the several states and affect the nation as a result at the specific federal level. That is, analogously, my voter registration, which runs through a state office, is actually administered at a county level; when voting, the county is the first valence of oversight for my ballot. A statewide initiative would face voters under the administration of county election offices, but the result would instruct the state legislature to do something that affects the entire state; there is no similar state administration of a federal election that directly affects Congress that way.

    If Google or anyone else refers to a federal election, the phrase means it elects federal offices.
     
    Quantum Quack likes this.
  18. Seattle Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,434
    Rainbow, the argument that you hear about collusion not being a crime is disingenuous. Collusion is a synonym for conspiracy and conspiracy is a crime.

    This is like arguing that a committing a bank heist isn't a crime just because there is no law using the phrase "bank heist". Robbing a bank is illegal and committing a bank heist is the same thing.

    A non-naturalized U.S. citizen has the same rights as a naturalized U.S. citizen, contrary to your statement.
     
  19. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,219
    Why don't you make that point then, instead of blaming billvon for taking you at your word? Dereliction of sworn duty would be a reason for impeachment. Golfing would not.
     
  20. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    18,314
    Perhaps you could clear up a confusion?
    Is the term "Impeached" a process or an outcome of impeachment? If an outcome Nixon was never impeached. Yes?
     
  21. Seattle Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,434
    Impeachment is the bringing of charges by a vote in the House of Representatives. Nixon was not impeached. He resigned before that happened. Bill Clinton was impreached but was not convicted by the Senate.

    If the Democrats regain the majority in the House it is possible for Trump to be impeached. It's not likely that he will be convicted by the Senate. To impeach in the House only requires a majority. To convict in the Senate requires a 2/3rd's majority. That isn't likely to happen.

    Furthermore, Democrats have to consider how this would affect their chances of winning the next Presidential election (or the upcoming mid-term elections). Trump voters are still out there so if something is done to make them feel their voices aren't being heard we could have more "Trumps" elected.
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2018
    sculptor and Quantum Quack like this.
  22. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    18,314
    It is really interesting to me how easy it is to not consider the fundamental differences between voting systems re: USA and Australia. I might add that I am no expert on those differences by any stretch.
    In comparison, when I vote I could be voting for any level of Government, local, state or federal each representative relatively autonomous to the other.
    Another example is that, as you probably know we just had a change of Prime Minister with out a pubic vote. ( the vote being sitting member party room only, due to lack of confidence)
    So while the nations federal leadership has changed the federal ruling party/coalition hasn't changed and will not change until general elections are carried out and the party is voted out. (*) The current federal government may stay in power until that national vote, even if it changes leadership mid term. The PM is typically the leader of the party/coaltion and the nation by virtue of that party leadership.
    State politics has little to do with it.

    As an Australian discussing USA elections it is really easy to misunderstand those fundamental differences.
    (*) with few exceptions.
     
  23. Seattle Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,434
    The biggest difference is not state politics, it's that you have a Parlimentary system and we have a President. We vote at the state level in national elections, we have an electoral college, which is funky, but the biggest difference is that we are not a Parlimentary system and have no Prime Minister, votes of no-confidence nor do we have a system where one party can call for early elections if it benefits them.

    Yet the party is as significant here as there in the sense that even though they don't call for no-confidence or determine the dates of elections, they still have too much influence. In recent years, everything is done by party lines it seems. Politicians care more about the party mechanisms that about the people they are supposed to be representing.
     
    sculptor and Quantum Quack like this.

Share This Page