Identity loss and suicide rates in Maoris

Discussion in 'Human Science' started by S.A.M., Jan 23, 2010.

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  1. Trippy ALEA IACTA EST Staff Member

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    Yeah, New Zealand. New Zealand Culture is an evolving fusion of Maori and European cultures, it's a slow process, as any cultural change is (unless it's forced by war) but Maori culture is becoming increasingly important.

    Now you're just being disingenuine, again.
    Tino rangatiratanga is the Maori flag.
    And just to point out how ridiculous you're being, Tino rangatiratanga has been flown along side the New Zealand flag.
    Tino rangatiratanga is a symbol of maori soveriegnty, and as such, I'm fairly certain that there would be a large number of maori appaled at the idea of pakeha flying their flag (a concept I'm sure you won't understand, and I'm not going to try and relate to you).
    Meanwhile, as I understand it, one of the things that's currently being worked on is a new flag for New Zealand that incorporates/aknowledges the mixed heritage, British and Maori, of New Zealand. Why should the Maori give up something that is uniquely theirs (if Pakeha start using it, how is it uniquely theirs)?

    Meanwhile, back in the realworld, here are some of the proposed alternatives:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Koru_flag.svg
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Kyle_Lockwood's_New_Zealand_Flag.svg
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:NZ_Republica_.jpg
    And here's one that incorporates the Union Jack:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Proposed_new_New_Zealand_flag_with_Union_Jack.svg
     
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  3. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Thats wonderful. Perhaps we may yet live to see European migrants integrate!

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    I'm sure that will go a long way to restoring Maori identity in New Zealand.
     
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  5. Trippy ALEA IACTA EST Staff Member

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    The really funny thing about this thread, and some of the assumptions that are being made in it, is that to some extent, i'm fairly sure that pakeha disconnection from european culture and the associated loss of identity, is, I believe, causing it's own problems, but, those problems are associated with binge drinking and alcoholism.

    So the loss of identity isn't neccessarilly something that just afflicts native peoples, hence my use of fusion instead of integration. I don't believe that if you look at New Zealand in 100 years tme you will see a European culture with pockets of maoriness, or a Maori culture with pockets of europeanness - sure, there will still be places that are distinctly european, or distinctly maori, but over all the culture will be a mish mash of the two (which is something that is already happening, but in some regards it's a regional thing).
     
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  7. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    The difference is the pakeha can always go home if they miss European culture. The Maori don't have that option.
     
  8. Trippy ALEA IACTA EST Staff Member

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    No, the Pakeha can't go home, most of them no longer qualify for residency in their countries of origin (whatever that means).

    But if you're going to get picky over it, the Maori could alwasy return to the Society Islands, or wherever in Polynesia it is that their own traditions state they came from, and return the land to the Moriori, whom they stole it off, and commited genocide against.

    Besides which, much of the land that the Europeans occupy was purchased/acquired legitimately.
     
  9. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    I mean, if they miss being European, they have options.
     
  10. spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

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    Who cares about a primitive warrior culture? Let it die, it has no place in a modern global society.
     
  11. Trippy ALEA IACTA EST Staff Member

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    See below:

     
  12. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Which Polynesian island is free from western intervention? Where has their culture not been disturbed?

    I think you'll find such "primitive" cultures have outlived and will continue to outlive many "modern" cultures.

    Once modern cultures have exhausted all the possible resources they can, we'll all be living in primitive cultures
     
  13. Trippy ALEA IACTA EST Staff Member

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    FInd the topless chicks and follow the breasts. :/

    But seriously.
    Consider the Kingdom of Tonga for example.

    All of 300 europeans out of a population of 112,000, who have integrated into the Tongan society, sure, you'd probably be able to pick some European influence in their societies, however...
     
  14. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Wow I'm seriously amazed. Why wasn't it screwed up like everything else? Well besides the conversion to Christianity
     
  15. Trippy ALEA IACTA EST Staff Member

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    Because most of Polynesia is the same, in spite of what you might like to think. Even in Samoa, the Cook Islands, they all retain their traditional values and traditional culture, they just happen to have also incorporated things like steel, and cars into their society (among other things), for example they use a Parlimentary democracy, styled after the british model, but, they've modified it to take into account their own values, they still have a paramount cheif (i'm not all that familiar with Samoan politics though).

    I'm sure there are other examples, I know that the Cook Islands are in free association with New Zealand, but are self governing, from what little I know they have a government that resembles ours, except that ultimately local government boils down to the island or vaka councils.
    Samoa: 0.4% European, 9% Euronesian (mixed blood), 92.6% Samoan.
    Cook Islands: 81.3% Polynesian, 2.4% European.

    Locally, the list goes on.

    As for the lack of screwed upness, I imagine that has as much to do with the fact that they were never as reliant upon the british as, for example, Indians were (and don't take offense, as I understand it, one of the biggest problems in India after the British left was the fact that the people who needed to know how to do things like fix tractors, didn't). Or for that matter in any of the parts of colonized Africa, but, then again, those are sweeping generalizations, something I'm not terribly fond of, and I know that, for example, in some parts of Africa certain tribes, that were locally in a minority, were viewed as being of a more noble apperance by certain european countries, and treated as such, but when the europeans left, the attitudes did not.

    As far as conversion and colonization goes - let's not forget the Muslim colonization of the Arabic peninsula... :3
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2010
  16. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    hey! what do you mean it would mean nothing to me? It would have to have meaning for me.


    As I have been in cultures where I have no idea what anyone is saying and I'm all alone, I would use this as an oppertunity to try some new food (which hand gestures work well for) then I'd watch and see what people are doing and make sure I don't do anything that could upset them. For example, do I eat in a public space, say while I am walking, or do I find a place to sit? Can I take photo graphs? Are people looking at me?

    I'd find it quite fun and probably like the food most

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    Those memories would be my meaning.


    Where to go? Well, assuming I had a place to live, a job, I'd look into finding some friends that like the things I like to do. Say biking for example. Or swimming. Or if non of that is possible then I'd find out what they do for fun and see if I liked that. People are people, even the brainwashed ones. I have lots of friends that are religious, we just don't talk about how Jesus never existed and Mohammad was a Jew

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    Yes We Can

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    Last edited: Jan 29, 2010
  17. Trippy ALEA IACTA EST Staff Member

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    Actually, as I understand it, the conversion of Polynesia to christianity had as much to do with the el nino/la nina cycle then anything else.

    They showed up at the beginning of a severe cycle (nothing compared to the meganino's, but one/some of the most sincere in some time) and said "See? This is because God is angry with you, convert and everything will be alright". The natives bought it, hook line and sinker, as would normally happen, equilibrium resumed, and that seemed to confirm the christian faith.
     
  18. spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

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    Then I'm sure Islamic culture is looking forward to a bright dim future.
     
  19. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    I don't. Having met Palestinians, Lebanese, Moroccans, Tunisians, Syrians, Ethiopians, Sudanese, Iraqis and Persians, I know exactly how different they are from natives of western colonies.

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    In fact, why go abroad? After 800 years of Mughal rule, India was the most attractive go to site in the world. After 200 years of British rule, it was a dump.
     
  20. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    No there is no biking or swimming [do you have ANY idea how hot it is? I would never leave without a tent over me for fear of getting fried and I'm dark skinned.]

    There are lots of places to ramble if you can take the heat. Lots of hidden caves in mountains around and you might find yourself in pitch dark groping around, and suddenly come upon something which feels like a snake or a skeleton [not sure if gear is available now for trampling around]. What you will find is endless sands and endless roads, pitch dark so that when you enter Mecca and suddenly see the Ka'aba its a surprise, like wtf is this doing here? Seeing the Ka'aba itself for the first time is an experience especially at night, it feels other wordly and somehow mysterious. I had a visceral reaction to it, probably because I was fasting and it was something that I had always wanted to do, like meeting a goal on your bucket list.

    The ministry had given us transportation and they dumped us at the bus station. After that we were on our own. Since I was the only one in my group who was interested in the place for itself, I wandered around on my own, checking out all the inscriptions and reading everything on the plaques [its a bad habit picked up in museums]. My less literary companions went for performing umra, but I rambled up and down the steps [they didn't allow anyone on the roof] round and around the mosque. The Ka'aba is built so that it feels like its just ahead of you, but its quite a bit in the interior, so that you keep walking and walking and walking and never seem to quite get there. On the way you see a set of marble steps [the whole mosque is marble and calligraphy] going down into the earth and when you go down, down, down, its the mouth of the zam zam spring [which has healing properties or so they say] and you can drink it or wash in it or even if you like bathe in it. Its like a giant washroom of a five star motel. You go back up and there are curiosities like the place where Abraham first set down there [muq'aam e Ibrahim] and you have Saudis standing there to make sure you don't kiss the glass or anything irrational like that. Just look at it, they say, don't kiss it. Its not sacred or holy.

    Then you check out the black stone. I wondered why people were allowed to kiss that. Sunnah! said the Saudi nearby, bas marra waheda, ashan rasoollillah fi kida, just do it once, because Mohammed did it.

    Ah, I see. There is a ritual for the Kaaba and if you don't know what to do just ask your neighbour.

    In the event that you did get there Michael, I think you'd wonder what the hue and cry was all about

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    PS I would rambled on but I thought that was enough!
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2010
  21. wynn ˙ Valued Senior Member

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    Perhaps the European default to think that they are the highest, the most advanced, the worthiest is what makes them crucially different from other cultures; which could also be why Europeans have it so difficult to assimilate when they live in a foreign country.

    Although it seems this goes mostly for Protestants, who are also the most aggressive and expansive Christian school. They have their very own idea of being the chosen people, the right people. Each Protestant believes that whoever doesn't agree with him or her, will burn in hell for all eternity. An outlook like this certainly gives one a sense of worth and certainty that overruns any and all other concerns.
     
  22. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

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    Yes: the USA. Once we stopped being a colony and started developing our own culture, we've been assimilating one wave of immigrants after the next: Irish, Germans, Scandinavians, Czechs, Poles, Italians, Portuguese and Greeks. The newest wave is refugees from the former USSR: Russians, Moldovans, Ukrainians and Georgians.

    America may have seemed like European culture to you, but you're not a European and in any case the things you managed to overlook while you were here hardly qualify you as an anthropologist. European visitors think they've landed in the Wild West, or perhaps a real-life Disneyland. They can barely recognize the children of immigrants from their own countries.
     
  23. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    See, I'm sure I'd enjoy myself. I like doing pretty much those exact things. As long as I either have a guide book to read or a plaque written in English then I'm usually pretty happy. Then off to have some good food. That's the whole point in visiting other places

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