I want to kill these punks

Speaking as a father and a concerned human being.....if execution is not permissible hear I question in what circumstance it may be....maybe an eye for an eye would be more suitable....let these scum stare down a horrifying and humiliating situation on their own. I am confident that these types of situations have occurred thruout history and current communication capabilities have put the stories in front of more eyes today but the horror of the human race is apparent.

 

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I'm sure you can show me where I said that.

I'll leave it with you. I think you know where to shove it.

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,
Tiassa

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The joke is over

Multiculturalism is constantly lauded by elites, and those AngloCeltic Australians who only have to live with fully assimilated more recent migrants. It is the poor and working class who find themselves amidst the ghettos of ethnic degradation where 'Aussies' are looked upon as alien in their own land. The multiculralists on this board can harp on about ownership till the cows come home, but the fact is that young women have been degraded in the most despicable and heinous fashion because they were white...they have been tortured and there lives wrecked, becasue they were acting within contemporary societal norms...deemed to make them sluts in Leb world...I say f***ing hang em hi' and send their families home to whatever shithole it is they come from...I'm over it, my limits of tolerance have been exceeded...if this is the price of mulitculturalism...the price is too high...the only ones I feel sorry for in this whole scandal are the Aboriginals who have hard a truly difficult tijme, maybe we should sort themout before we open the gates to these sort of horrific criminals

 

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Tiassa US intellectual graveyard

The reason Australia is such a mess is becuse we are following your garbage system with open gates for immigrants, crap food, poor clothing, idiot television, the poor and droll use of English and your halfwit foreign policy...I have been to America and there are rare parts that are OK, but for the most part it is as if the contestansts of many a village idiot competition have gone there and overbread, and have some false view of themselves as the worlds saviours...Yanks also think that everyone loves them when they are universally despised by all except local assuckers who want to grease up to Uncle Sam...this country is spiritually and culutrally confude thanks to the mulitcultural crap that goes on..now the government closes down schools and the like thanks to globalization led by the US puppet governement being orchestrated by Multi Nationals

PS You'll find Australians don't need freedom of speech as some of say what we like regardless and we are a pretty brash lot.

 

Main Entry: brash
Pronunciation: 'brash
Function: adjective
Etymology: origin unknown
Date: 1566
1 : BRITTLE <brash wood>
2 a : heedless of the consequences : AUDACIOUS <the brashest bush pilot of them all> b : done in haste without regard for consequences : RASH <brash acts>
3 a : full of fresh raw vitality <a brash frontier town> b : uninhibitedly energetic or demonstrative : BUMPTIOUS <a brash comedian>
4 a : lacking restraint and discernment : TACTLESS <brash remarks> b : aggressively self-assertive : IMPUDENT <brash to the point of arrogance>
5 : piercingly sharp : HARSH <a brash squeal of brakes>
6 : marked by vivid contrast : BOLD <brash colors>
- brash·ly adverb
- brash·ness noun


so i guess brashness characterizes aussie posts in these forums, yes?

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Generally speaking, and by comparsion with a lot of other nations, yes.

 

make some noize

Crisis centre says gang rape a problem across all races
By_Eamonn Duff
July 21 2002
The Sun-Herald

When a Sydney teenager missed her bus home after TAFE, she assumed it would be safe to walk.

But minutes later, the student was dragged into a vacant school by four men dressed in business suits and gang raped.

They did not look like Muslims. They were of Anglo-Saxon appearance, like herself. They had been enjoying an after-work drink outside a Petersham pub last month when they saw the pretty 19-year-old stroll by.

It is cases like this, which happen every week, that have led Sydney's leading rape crisis counselling service to acknowledge that the Muslim gang-rape problem is merely an element of a larger problem that has "spiralled out of control".

NSW Rape Crisis Centre manager Karen Willis said: "Women are being led to believe that if they stay clear of Middle Eastern men, they will be safe.
__
"But the harsh reality is, young men are congregating after the footy, after the cricket, after a surf, at weekend parties ... and they are committing these same horrific acts on women."

Mrs Willis also denied Muslim men were embarking only on racially driven attacks.

"Our service has proof that Lebanese boys are committing these same crimes on women from their own background," she said.

"These female victims have received counselling from us, but will never come forward because of their Islamic background and the whole repercussions involved with the Muslim virgin-bride issue."

The TAFE student raped by the four men in business suits contacted the NSW Rape Crisis Centre earlier this month. She said she would not report it to the police, fearing they would not be able to take any action and because she had not told her family.

But she wanted women to know that the people who attacked her appeared to be of Anglo-Saxon origin.

"They dragged me into the school and said there was no point in screaming. One of them took the tie off his neck and tied it around mine and said it would get tighter if I made a sound," she said of her ordeal. "I wanted to scream, to struggle, but I thought they would kill me." The girl confirmed all four men raped her.

The NSW Rape Crisis hotline is the only 24-hour service available to women across theState.

Mrs Willis said that, on average, counsellors had been receiving two calls like this each week. "This is not a problem confined to individual cultures," she said.

"There are groups of Australian Anglo-Saxon men, here in Sydney, committing the exact same horrific crimes on women from their own background. In fact, they are the most common group of men to be committing these crimes - simply because there are more of them."

The NSW Rape Crisis Centre can be contacted on 02 9819 6565 or 1800 424 017.

 

aussies on usenet havin fun

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Hunter wrote:
>
> Seppo Renfors wrote:
>
> > Hunter wrote:
> > >
> > > Seppo Renfors wrote:
> > >
> > > > ...and from what I have seen is that a girl deliberately got of the
> > > > train with some CLAIMED to be "Lebanese" youths for the purpose of
> > > > smoking dope - an illegal activity.
> > >
> > > So is J-Walking, speeding or getting too intoxicated.... Are they all rapeable
> > > offenses???
> >
> > Note the highlighted word! The EMPHASIS is on that - not the fact that
> > she was going to commit an illegal act.
>
> So why even highlight it with your "an illegal activity" additive? It was pretty
> transparent to the rest of us what the intent of that was.
>
> > THAT is the point - were you there and checked out their birth
> > certificates, their citizenship papers, Hmmm??? How do you know she
> > wasn't "one of them", unless you refer the GENDER!
>
> I'm not referring to their race, I'm referring to their culture,

Oooooohhh no you don't! That IS the "BACK DOOR" racism! It won't wash
with me, as you well know. A reference to "lebanese culture" is a
reference to Lebanese PEOPLE, and a tarring of ALL LEBANESE with false
accusations.

> and it has been pointed
> out on numerous occasions, especially by the victoms, that they copped this because they
> were "aussie sluts".

THAT is a LIE. It is pushed by MEDIA - not by the girls! I have made
that point clear, as I have seen the stories. It is clearly a MEDIA
beat-up more than anything else. It is part of the race hate
propaganda here.

> It is obvious even to a blind man that this crime was one of
> bigotry and hatred by a small group of people of Lebanese descent.

There you go again tarring "Lebanese" purposely. Ethnicity has FUCK
ALL to do with it. FACT is these people were AUSSIES. If that offends,
it shouldn't. You ask for accepting of realities lower down. THIS IS
one such reality - they were NOT "Lebanese", they were AUSSIES - born
and bred. The CANNOT have a Lebanese Culture, as they are NOT in
Lebanon, haven't been educated there, nor have the social structure of
Lebanon.

>The majority of
> Lebanese are sickened by this like the rest of Australians, why are you trying to sweep
> what happened under the carpet?

Again, there isn't "The Lebanese" and "The Australians", we are ONE
PEOPLE, we are all Aussies who settle here, it is only RACISTS who
make that distinction constantly. As they NEED to focus on the race
angle. You CLAIM to not be racist, but by hell you certainly still
make the "them" -v- "us" distinction.

> By trying to hide the facts you are only compounding the
> problem.

Calling them "Lebanese" IS hiding the fact they were AUSSIE BORN AND
BRED. IF being born in this country doesn't mean being an "Aussie",
then it has to have some other definition. The only other ones I have
seen are, one from The Nazi, who only qualify WASP as an "Aussie", but
then only if they agree with his Nazi policies. Or Neville's, "birth
right", requiring an "Anglo" ancestry. Which amounts to much the same
thing.

> If a gang of white aussie rapists went out raping non-whites I'd want them shot
> in the head, I feel the same about this group. Are you really so deluded that you think
> only white people can be culturally bigotted to the point that they commit hate
> crimes???

The "cultural" angle here doesn't come from the CRIMINALS anywhere
near as much as it comes from the REDNECKS - one of "cultural hatred"
if I have ever seen such. The most STUPID part of it is that they
don't have a CLUE what their actual "culture" is. They only know the
word "lebanese", so it is the LEBANESE ANCESTRY PEOPLE the target is,
not their "culture"!

So why don't you concentrate on the WHITE GANG RAPISTS for then? Kate
provided the following:

Crisis centre says gang rape a problem across all races
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/07/20/1026898931412.html

I haven't seen a single word from anyone of the redneck group on the
abduction of the TEN YEAR OLD girl in Gladston, Qld. A man mid to late
40's and wife/defacto(?) 39 kidnapped the 10 year old girl, imprisoned
her, raped her at least 3 times, attempted another three times, sexual
assault, torture, sodomy, attempted murder... a total of 16 very
serious charges has been laid against the couple.
HEEEELLLLOOOOooo..... where is the noise about this one, hmmm? WHY
isn't anyone saying BOO about it?

Do you know WHY not a single mention of this has been made? It DIDN'T
MENTION ETHNICITY on the news - therefor it is likely to be a WHITE
ANGLO couple, so racist arseholes could make nothing of it. You see
the CRIME is of NO INTEREST to racist arseholes - only WHAT ETHNICITY
they CRIMINALS are. There is not screaming "Leb rapist" there... yet
it is even more abhorrent than the gang rape of the ADULT girls. It
also involves a WOMAN who was an active participant and includes
TORTURE.

What you will se next from the arseholes is a MINIMISING of this to
nothing, and even more howling over "LEB RAPISTS". I've seen it before
already many times. The pricks will claim "sensationalised", while
they repeatedly holler every bloody sensationalist lie there is about
"LEB RAPISTS". They makes you sick, the mentally unbalanced bastards!

> > What you are relying on are MEDIA reports, who are deliberately
> > beating up the "race" angle. One judgement I have seen the Judge made
> > a POINT to mention there were NO RACIST MOTIVES.
>
> Funnily enough a higher court changed that decision from memory, and it came out that a
> deal was done to hide the bigotry of the crimes.

Because it is IRRELEVANT. It is the RAPE that matters - what ethnicity
the person is doesn't make the crime any more or less heinous -
however to racists it is so, as they HAVE to harp more on the
ethnicity of the criminals, than the CRIME ITSELF. WHY hasn't anyone
said BOO about the Gladston abduction and rapes!

> > I have seen those two girls, interviewed, who also said it wasn't a
> > race issue.
>
> Bull - fucking - shit!

Don't tell ME what I have or haven't seen. Listen we here in SA aren't
so HELL BENT on racism as the East appears to be... or apparently the
West for that matter.

> I've seen one of the girls interviewed and she made it very
> fucking obvious that it was a cultural issue.

NOTE: I say "I have seen those two girls" you say "I've seen one of
the girls..", Note the difference? I also saw the ONE girl interviewed
(60 min), and it was the REPORTER who stuffed the race terms in her
mouth, every one of them! She did NOT volunteer them.

> Her own words described her being told why
> she "deserved" it.

AFTER they had been put in her mouth by the reporter. It is GUTTER
journalism.

> These people who did this were animals, and the Lebanese community
> themselves for the most part are pleased with what has been done to them, except the
> insane loons from one particular mosque.

I see..... so only the "Lebanese community" is upset now, eh? You
define them as LEBANESE, even though they are properly termed as
Australians. In fact you don't even recognise people from Lebanon as
possibly being Aussies.

I would have thought it was the Australian community that was none too
pleased (except for the Nazi and its ilk, who would be salivating at
the race hate propaganda opportunity it gives them).

> > The REPORTER spoon fed the racism angle into the mouths of
> > the two girls. The story on 60 minutes (where the ringleader received
> > 55 years - but it won't stick it will be reduced on appeal) was about
> > one girl on her own.
> >
> > But think about it. The press has been bagging "Lebanese" as
> > criminals, rapists, gangs and the like for a number of years. Then you
> > have a situation were a girl, on her own, meets a "gang" of Lebanese
> > on a train, knows them for about 5 minutes. They are total strangers
> > to her. Then she is supposed to get off the train, ALONE in company of
> > a "gang" of supposedly LEBANESE and go to a secluded area, quite
> > voluntarily according to her. The claimed reason? To smoke a joint!
> >
> > There is something seriously WRONG with that picture!
>
> How fucking old or naive are you???? THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE!

Oh, yes there is!

> Christ,
> I've fucking run into chicks on trains and jumped off with them to have a joint on many
> occasions, quite often with only 1 or 2 of them and quite a number of us, we don't
> fucking rape them, we give them a smoke, chat to them and see them safely back to the
> fucking train! Reason being that we're not fucking animals like this small subset of
> Lebanese Australians are!

This is NOT the behaviour expected from a "schoolmarm" type girl as
was portrayed on the TV program. They are SCRUBBERS who do that,
pretty damned uncaring of what they do. The kind that identify with
GANGS.

> > A lone girl with the portrayed "good upbringing" just doesn't go off
> > with a gang of male strangers ON HER OWN, regardless of who they are.
> > Further to that, she cannot have been unaware of the media frenzy over
> > "Leb gangs". She claimed to know they were Lebanese and went off with
> > them regardless... to smoke a joint! Come on.... kids her age are not
> > dills, and very good at picking up vibes. She would have known the
> > KIND of people this group was - bad. She was under NO ILLUSION they
> > were from a church quire! That's for sure! I don't think "smoking a
> > joint" was sufficient enticement for her to go with them. But what
> > was?
>
> Let me know when reality dawns on you, instead of your intentional attempts to sweep it
> under the carpet. What she did was quite fucking normal, and happens every day in every
> city.

Yes it does, but NORMAL it aint! There was a reason, but for WHAT
REASON. I don't accept the "explanation" it was far too pat - the
portrayal of the "innocent clean cut girl" too glib - the carefully
selected setting of opulence. It was heavily stage managed!

There was an Aussie ex Olympian - female, done for supplying heroin
just the other day. Are you so bloody NAIVE to think these street kids
are some little bloody angels? Certainly the KIND of girl portrayed on
the TV program would NOT have got off the train with a GANG, one of
strangers to boot. Girls who run with gangs aren't exactly your goody
goody two-shoes, you know.

Was she dealing? Was she making a quick buck on the side with
prostitution? Maybe she just liked putting it about? Perhaps paid for
drugs with sex? All these things are possible. Who knows, but there is
more to this story than meets the eye, so much is sure.

You see these gangland girls in courts, meek and in tears in their
eyes, looking innocent as hell, but watch them outside the court, they
swear like a bullocky, talk about who they rooted the night before,
how much booze they had drank, kick at people and show no respect
whatever for the laws. Yeah.... I've seen them!

> > There is far more to this than meets the eye. It in no way excuses or
> > mitigates the rapes, but is sure as hell would put a completely
> > different slant on this story.
>
> No, I'm afraid not.

Yeah, this is where it is, isn't it.... "Lebanese" all bad, a "white
girl=Angel" - HAH! You get "angels" on both communities, you get slags
and scrubbers in both communities. "Angels" don't run with GANGS!

> > *I* don't go around claiming "Lebanese" and frothing at the mouth
> > against ALL Lebanese like the Nazis do.
>
> On this I agree with you, I have as much issue with the rednecks that try to tar the
> entire Lebanese and/or Muslim community with the same brush used on these fuckwits as I
> do with you greennecks that try to ignore the blatently obvious fact that these were
> crimes of cultural hatred and bigotry.

Well your agreement didn't last more than a couple of lines. There you
go claiming it to be a "cultural hatred" a "Lebanese culture" thing,
meaning it is THE NORM FOR LEBANESE PEOPLE. You are not segregating
the criminals from the remainder of the particular community. While
you refer to "Culture", "leb culture" or "Leb rapists", you are
continually vilifying ALL Lebanese. Note that you then identify
ethnicity, before the crime. Placing them in the "order of
importance".

> Most of these people are good people and it's sad
> to think that a lot of good people are likely to suffer due to the efforts of people
> trying to pretend this crime is something other than what it was.

Why didn't I see that in one your posts, when you posted a "me too"
posts to a fuckwit redneck, who has just slagged of the entire
Lebanese community, and thrown a few hand grenades at Muslims as well.

> If the average Aussie
> loses confidence in the ability of the authorities to deal with such crimes, and feel
> that these people are "protected" then lashback groups will start up and innocent people
> will suffer.

Which are made even more intolerable by the witch hunts of an entire
community. A community that is in general far more law abiding than
you average Aussie, born and bred in this country..... oh, come to
think of it so were these!

> The only sensible solution (as obviously the judge that handed out the 55
> year sentence recognised) is to stomp on these crimes of hatred hard, as they did with
> groups like the ANM 10+ years back, to re-install a sense of safety to the community.
> Crimes instigated by cultural hatred should NEVER be tolerated, regardless of the
> culture doing the hating.

Death sentences in the US hasn't stopped the phenomenal murder rate,
has it. It is a far too simplistic view. It is something after the
fact - something AFTER a crime has been committed. It doesn't stop
crime.

The social system is breaking down in big cities (and not only here).
This needs fixing. The biggest problem is the anonymity of a person in
a big city. This comes from two sources. The size of the place, so big
nobody knows anybody. The other is people don't want to see anything
happening when a crime is going on. It facilitates crime.

This is NOT the fault of any Lebanese, but that of Governments here.
It is not about hand-outs, they never work and lowers people's esteem.
What is required is a sense of worth for these people, who have no
opportunities in the city. The country areas are screaming for all
kinds of trades, motor mechanics, electricians, plumbers,
refrigeration mechanics etc, and they are the unemployed in the
cities.

> > The silly Nazi twerps wouldn't
> > even know a Lebanese if the fell over one anyway!
>
> You're probably right. The same could be said for some of these silly greenleft twerps
> too.

THEY don't go around hollering "LEB RAPISTS". Note how the ethnicity
always gets the PRIME position of being named first! It is "race"
focused and "race" is only used by those who wants to focus on racism.
It is an outmoded concept, as previously mentioned.
>
> > To THEM it isn't the
> > RAPE that is at issue, but the fact they can vilify ALL LEBANESE and
> > throw in Muslims for good measure - their FOCUS isn't the CRIME, but
> > RACISM and promoting race hatred, under the guise of "outrage".
>
> At the same time the greenleft are pulling out all stops to hide the fact that these
> WERE HATE CRIMES.

ALL rapes are that -hate crimes. No SANE person could claim it an act
of "love"! They are about deprivation of the victim, a power over the
victim, installing fear in the victim.

> Take the middle ground Seppo, see what is there instead of ignoring
> it, but don't judge an entire cultural group by what one small subset have done, you're
> no idiot so open up your mind a bit. You claim to hate what the rednecks stand for?

I am. Racism, isn't "middle ground". I see the FOCUS being of "race",
and fuck the victim... well not literally, but metaphorically
speaking. I see the blame SOLELY on the Lebanese and Muslims. When I
address the root causes of crime, the same racist shits, start howling
at the moon, and frothing like rabid jackals. If one doesn't address
the root causes, it will carry on. NAZI ideas are NOT a "fix", but an
even greater evil.

I suggest you read this article:
<3D3FF001.6FC861B2@not.ollis.com.au>

> Well
> don't play into their hands by trying to hide the reality of the situation, you are only
> playing into their hands and giving them ammo. Recognise what has happened, state it,
> but reinforce the fact that the vast majority of Lebanese extraction citizens and/or
> Muslims in Australia are as sickened by these crimes as the rest of us.

The REALITY is that these CRIMES happen, the reality is it is NOT the
sole domain of either Lebanese, and certainly not Muslims. Who of the
mad redneck coots is interested in the crimes, or actual REALISTIC
prevention of them? Not one! All they want to do is vomit race hate
propaganda.

> THAT is the
> reality of the situation. While you and the rest of the denialists are trying to cover
> up what has really happened you are only adding strength to the arguments of those that
> truly are racist, and that is fucking frightening.

*sigh*... if focusing on the issues of the CRIME itself, not the
ANCESTRY of Aussies who committed the crime, then I'm guilty, and
pointing out racism when there is racism, then I shall remain guilty.

> I used to know a few of the old ANM
> crowd and I'd hate to see a state of affairs that led to a climate where that sort of
> thing came back, but only stronger, and it's all this bullshit covering up of what has
> happened and kids glove approach that will cause this to happen.

So pandering to Nazis and the like is good.... sorry, count me out.
What has awakened all this shit is one Pauline Hanson. I wrote about
the effect it would have back in 98 sometime. I was right. PANDERING
to racist only ENCOURAGES the bastards.

"Why of course the people don't want war ...
It is the leaders who determine the policy and
it is always a simple matter to drag the people along...
all you have to do is tell them they are being attacked
and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and
exposing the country to danger. It works the same
in any country.
- Hermann Goering

I think Pauline read those words too! Now Howard is using them!

> > The Gender-Bender posted an article about a crime, and bitched like
> > all hell that the ETHNICITY of the accused wasn't published - not a
> > single mention of the victim. The Crime it self didn't matter, only
> > the ETHNICITY of the accused. THAT demonstrates the FOCUS of that shit
> > headed imported Nazi filth! It was seriously PISSED OFF that it was
> > denied the opportunity generate race hatred! ETHNICITY has fuck all to
> > do with the crime!
>
> Actually in this case it had everything to do with it, it was a crime of cultural
> hatred. You are only compounding things by trying to hide that fact.

So you claim, but it isn't central to the issue in any way. That ISN'T
important to the crime. What CAUSES such underlying emotions (if they
actually exist) is important and it isn't what shithead racist froth
at the mouth over - they themselves are part of the CAUSE. It is the
REDNECKERY and alienation of people via the media, and fuckwit
REDNECKS in the streets who cause such alienation. There is one part
of the underlying problem. Other problems I have already mentioned,
and have NOTHING whatsoever to do with any ethnicity. It is to do with
socio economically disadvantaged classes.

> That all being said I've really got to learn not to post when I'm pissed, when I find
> myself shaking in anger at the end of a post in usenet I realise that I'm really taking
> things too seriously, but then rape due to cultural hatred isn't really a laughing
> matter......

Again, you focus on the ethnicity of the people, not the crime itself.
The CRIME is RAPE - not that of "cultural hatred", that you put a
greater importance on - one doesn't cause the other. Obviously if an
"anglo" did the rape, you wouldn't be shaking with any fury at all,
just turn the page and read the sports news instead. I point you to
the Gladston abduction and rapes of a 10 year old girl!

--

SIR -Philosopher Unauthorised
------------------------------------------------------------------
" Don't resent getting old. A great many are denied that privilege "
---------------------------------------------------------------

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onya

Hello everyone,

Nice to join you as a first-timer in this forum on this incendiary and horrible topic of rape and racism (or 'ethnic' crime).

I'd like to commend Spookz for that excellent rebuttal. It really is a shame that the horrible crime of rape is so enmeshed and confused with (and gives oxygen to) this racism and fear.

I am Australian, Sydney born and bred and I adore Sydney. I am also first generation Australian. My parents were born in Lebanon and migrated in the mid 1960s, for a better life I suppose, as it was before the war started, which really had nothing to do with them. I know British migrants who have come here for the same reason, in search of a better life.

My parents are wonderful, law-abiding and extremely hard-working people. They speak three languages very well, contribute to and are well integrated into the Australian community, and have been working class all their life.

I live in the inner west of Sydney but I do have some cousins in the south-west. I have shopped in Bankstown and find it to be a great place to regularly visit - dynamic, diverse and mostly peaceful. Media images will always be selective - has anyone been out to Cabramatta or Bankstown and still think they are somehow in a Hades of crime and drug-pushing? I'm not saying this doesn't exist, but it exists in Kings Cross and Double Bay as well.

I'm an Australian who loves Australia, has never been to Lebanon but am intriguid by the rich cultural heritage of that country. Lebanese immigrants everywgere have contributed much to their adopted countries - inventors, poets, educators, engineers etc.

These quiet achievers are of course hardly ever reported in the press, and when they are, they are Australian with no reference made to their background. That's fair enough, that's how I identify myself unless someone asks me about my background (whereupon I proudly state Lebanese) but when it's negative press, that's the only time their ethnicity becomes an issue.

Crime exists amongst all communities and ethnicities. To expect any one ethnicity to be without crime is a kind of reverse racism - we must be without fault and when we do exhibit the same criminal tendencies amongst a very small minority, its open day for racism and discrimination and "how dare they?".

Australia is my country. I am also a critical internationalist and try to be aware of what is happening in the world, as teach geopolitics. I have Australian friends whose backgrounds are varied and we have no problem in our relationships based on integration - why should we? For the record, many notable Australians have a Lebanese background; to name only a couple - award winning author David Malouf and NSW governor Marie Bashir. I don't think the Lebanese are better or worse than anyone else. I do think pack rape is a horrendous crime that should be commensurately punished. But I think what is often overlooked is the strong currents of institutional racism flowing both within and between countries.

As for "Australia is peaceful, we don't want it contaminated by imported grievances" type sentiments, two things. First, I have Lebanese cousins happily living in Lebanon. Second, I have English and Irish immigrant friends who have been at loggerheads over 'imported issues'. And another point, let's not ignore how the wealth (and hence comfort and 'peace') was built upon heavy exploitation of the majority poor world. It's often the case that "those who pull the people's eyes out condemn them for being blind".

Rape is a crime that deserves long sentences. But it is not an ethnic issue. To make that erroneous correlation does a disservice to rape victims everywhere and just provides a convenient channel for discrimination against certain groups who are innocent of any crime. The media siezed upon those comments whereby any rapist will use any ideological excuse to gloss over their inexcusible crimes.

Thanks for reading this long-ish post and I hope the debate continues.

 

onya spookz

Hello everyone,

Nice to join you as a first-timer in this forum on this incendiary and horrible topic of rape and racism (or 'ethnic' crime).

I'd like to commend Spookz for that excellent rebuttal. It really is a shame that the horrible crime of rape is so enmeshed and confused with (and gives oxygen to) this racism and fear.

I am Australian, Sydney born and bred and I adore Sydney. I am also first generation Australian. My parents were born in Lebanon and migrated in the mid 1960s, for a better life I suppose, as it was before the war started, which really had nothing to do with them. I know British migrants who have come here for the same reason, in search of a better life.

My parents are wonderful, law-abiding and extremely hard-working people. They speak three languages very well, contribute to and are well integrated into the Australian community, and have been working class all their life.

I live in the inner west of Sydney but I do have some cousins in the south-west. I have shopped in Bankstown and find it to be a great place to regularly visit - dynamic, diverse and mostly peaceful. Media images will always be selective - has anyone been out to Cabramatta or Bankstown and still think they are somehow in a Hades of crime and drug-pushing? I'm not saying this doesn't exist, but it exists in Kings Cross and Double Bay as well.

I'm an Australian who loves Australia, has never been to Lebanon but am intriguid by the rich cultural heritage of that country. Lebanese immigrants everywgere have contributed much to their adopted countries - inventors, poets, educators, engineers etc.

These quiet achievers are of course hardly ever reported in the press, and when they are, they are Australian with no reference made to their background. That's fair enough, that's how I identify myself unless someone asks me about my background (whereupon I proudly state Lebanese) but when it's negative press, that's the only time their ethnicity becomes an issue.

Crime exists amongst all communities and ethnicities. To expect any one ethnicity to be without crime is a kind of reverse racism - we must be without fault and when we do exhibit the same criminal tendencies amongst a very small minority, its open day for racism and discrimination and "how dare they?".

Australia is my country. I am also a critical internationalist and try to be aware of what is happening in the world, as teach geopolitics. I have Australian friends whose backgrounds are varied and we have no problem in our relationships based on integration - why should we? For the record, many notable Australians have a Lebanese background; to name only a couple - award winning author David Malouf and NSW governor Marie Bashir. I don't think the Lebanese are better or worse than anyone else. I do think pack rape is a horrendous crime that should be commensurately punished. But I think what is often overlooked is the strong currents of institutional racism flowing both within and between countries.

As for "Australia is peaceful, we don't want it contaminated by imported grievances" type sentiments, two things. First, I have Lebanese cousins happily living in Lebanon. Second, I have English and Irish immigrant friends who have been at loggerheads over 'imported issues'. And another point, let's not ignore how the wealth (and hence comfort and 'peace') was built upon heavy exploitation of the majority poor world. It's often the case that "those who pull the people's eyes out condemn them for being blind".

Rape is a crime that deserves long sentences. But it is not an ethnic issue. To make that erroneous correlation does a disservice to rape victims everywhere and just provides a convenient channel for discrimination against certain groups who are innocent of any crime. The media siezed upon those comments whereby any rapist will use any ideological excuse to gloss over their inexcusible crimes.

Thanks for reading this long-ish post and I hope the debate continues.

 

Believe it or not, it's not actually racist to mention the culture which spawned these filthy punks. They deserve to die, and they are Lebanese. It would be racist if I was unable to mention their origins and heritage for fear of harrassment. Women are treated like crap in many less technologically advanced nations, including many nations in the Middle East. Saying that is not racism; it's just a fact. So do me a favour and don't bother mentioning racism. Those kids are scum and deserve to die.

 

Don't say don't mention

Hi Adam,

It is not racism to mention their background at all, it is a fact they happen to be a Lebanese background and all rape is abhorrent. I merely said expecting any one group to be absolutely pure and free of crime is a form of racism. You ask me not to mention racism but reserve the right to mention anything YOU deem relevant (their background). I think I am entitled to mention racism and the institutional racism that exists as much as you are entitled to mention their background. Both are legitimate.

 

multifaceted not just multicultural

Hi Squid Vicious (great name),

Just to place on record that I am an Australian (with a Lebanese background) who is not at all hesitant to say that I am Australian. I am proud of being an Australian and love Australia. I was born here and have never been to Lebanon, but even for people I know who have, big deal. They're entitled to explore their heritage.

My friends are fellow Australians from many different backgrounds, and we have no problems somehow co-existing. In fact I'd have to say it has enriched our lives being from different backgrounds. I can enjoy Irish culture, eat Turkish food, do some Arabic dancing ... I'm not saying multiculturism is perfect but I certainly do not think it has somehow created a place that is "spiritually dead", quite the opposite in fact.

Nor do I ignore Australia's English roots or Aboriginal history for that matter, these are all important and we have inherited British institutional norms (and some American).

It is interesting to note too that people from a non Anglo background are often not the ones who say they aren't Australian, it's others who "exoticise" them, as if their background defined every facet of their being. So some become defensive and wear it as a badge of honour. My having a Lebanese background is important and interesting, but it is not some sort of mono-identity.

I am also a teacher, a sci-fi buff, a community activist ... please accept that people are more than their ethnicities.

I understand your anger and I am particularly enraged by rape (as a woman), but I also know that most of my male relatives are law-abiding proud Australians.

It's sad that the lebanese you know Squid, are mostly online (including me!) I assure I'm a nice human being who is multifaceted and intelligent (I am doing a PhD and working in retail). I am not unrepresentative, great Australians with Lebanese in their backgrounds are everywhere.

 

Re: onya

Ann,

These quiet achievers are of course hardly ever reported in the press, and when they are, they are Australian with no reference made to their background. That's fair enough, that's how I identify myself unless someone asks me about my background (whereupon I proudly state Lebanese) but when it's negative press, that's the only time their ethnicity becomes an issue.


Of course its not reported. it may be sometimes mentioned as a side-note, but overall it doesnt matter. this is because these people are becoming australian, have embraced the country, and cause little or no trouble. I'm willing to bet they dont recieve any trouble either. these people are not the ones im railing against.
do i have the right to make a distinction? yes, i believe i do. if angry neighbours had a quarrel and decided to spill it into my backyard, i'd have every right to throw them out. why is this different?


Crime exists amongst all communities and ethnicities. To expect any one ethnicity to be without crime is a kind of reverse racism - we must be without fault and when we do exhibit the same criminal tendencies amongst a very small minority, its open day for racism and discrimination and "how dare they?".


in this case, Ann, it would appear that it was aimed AT US. that is the problem, not the rape itself (as deplorable as that might be, its almost irrelevant to the larger picture.). One of the guys in Spookz' post was saying that the ethnicity was a secondry consideration to the rape itself. i dont agree. i think it provided the motivation (at least partly) for the attack to occur in the first place, and IS therefore a primary consideration. he also points out the lack of attention given to the gladstone case. i dont think it's even relevant. that was a crime commited by two obviously sick people, and will presumably get the treatment it deserves.
a rape commited by an australian is obviously not racially motivated, and while it should be dealt with just as harshly it would not be sensational. what these boys have done is insulted our whole country, not just those few girls. psychologically speaking, it wasnt even aimed at the girls.. it was aimed at australians IN GENERAL. thats the difference here.


As for "Australia is peaceful, we don't want it contaminated by imported grievances" type sentiments, two things. First, I have Lebanese cousins happily living in Lebanon. Second, I have English and Irish immigrant friends who have been at loggerheads over 'imported issues'.


i'm not excluding ANYONE, ann. But do your english and irish friends firebomb police or pack rape, for example? i'd judge it fairly unlikely. if they did, however, i'd send them back too.


And another point, let's not ignore how the wealth (and hence comfort and 'peace') was built upon heavy exploitation of the majority poor world. It's often the case that "those who pull the people's eyes out condemn them for being blind".


a decent point, but firstly, australia was not AS involved in this type of imperialism as some countries, and secondly, it bears little relevence now. you might like to tell me why you think it does?


Rape is a crime that deserves long sentences. But it is not an ethnic issue. To make that erroneous correlation does a disservice to rape victims everywhere and just provides a convenient channel for discrimination against certain groups who are innocent of any crime. The media siezed upon those comments whereby any rapist will use any ideological excuse to gloss over their inexcusible crimes.


perhaps this is true. however, dont you think its important they used this PARTICULAR excuse? why would they, unless there was some basis for it?

 

Re: multifaceted not just multicultural

That seems fairly obvious Ann, and i would doubt that you would even recieve terribly much in the way of racism yourself? (thats an assumption).

but my point regarding the online gamers is this...
there is no way for us to know, when online, whether someone is white, vietnamese, aboriginal, lebanese or a king brown snake wearing an eagle feather suit.

so WHY bring it up? to do it in the manner i've seen some of these guys do, is the equivalent of sticking your head into the mouth of a crocodile. we all know what people are like, there WILL be backlash. the only thing it indicates to me, is that they do NOT see themselves as australian, but rather lebanese lving in australia, and thats the problem.

 

*Yawn*

Oooh goody, the psychology of rapists is just what I wanted to wake up to!

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Actually, my dear Ann, I am not aware that rapists commonly use ideological excuses. I believe that "she was asking for it", "she came on to me" and "she obviously wanted it" are more common excuses....when innocence is not used as a defense, of course, and speaking only of men who rape women.

So your contention that his comments were merely an excuse is tenuous at best.

And let's be honest, the low status of women in Muslim culture is a factor here. We have this problem, to a lesser extent, in my town, whereby Middle-Eastern students will come to our local university (quite well known for a few departments) and proceed to behave as if every American woman is duty-bound to fuck them, as all American women must be sluts.

Getting a "no" through their heads is rather difficult and has lead to problems.

Do I stereotype all Middle Easterners this way?

No.

But of course the politically correct "if you say the slightest negative thing about my culture, no matter how true, you are a racist pig" folks keep ignoring my "no" or assuming that I really mean "yes".

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musings

Hi there Squid and Xev,

Thanks for your thoughtful posts, I'll try to address the points from memory as I am not sure exactly how to use the quotes button (besides the other longhand way of cutting and pasting) so please excuse my being a bit of a Luddite! I'll work it out another time.

Squid, I certainly share your concern about firebombing and other most undesirable violent acts not normally seen on the Australian cultural & social landscape. Although, I do wonder where other violent demonstrations and acts fit in - the stoning of a moslem school bus in Brisbane; threats of firebombing of mosques; spitting on, assaulting and ripping off the headgear of moslem women wearing the 'hajib', especially during the Gulf War mark one (1991) ... it also brings to mind the mainstream media's depiction of the waterfront dispute demonstrations a few years ago, where they siezed upon the fact that children were being "used" in allegedly violent demonstrations to extract sympathy from the public, the same as a few years later with the Tampa crisis.

I'm directing quite a missive against most of the commercial mainstream media because of its lopsideness and selectivity; nothing unusual or original in that observation. But in this case it has particular applications.

I remember vividly when one tv station jumped the gun (no pun intended) during the Strathfield Plaza Masssacre in 1991 or 1992 by saying that the killer was Lebanese. It only surfaced later that the mass murderer was in fact one Wade Frankum. Now of course a lot of this has to do with a media outlet trying to scoop the story and just getting their facts plain wrong. But it is not merely episodic. There is a distinct bias in the media whereby some men of Lebanese extraction are actively vilified.

Do some deserve vilification? Of course! It's only when the whole are tainted by the actions of a few. Certainly it is not always the same group legitimately pointing out someone's background (in racial profiling for example) who will then take that a few increasingly dodgy steps further with wholesale discrimination.

Unfortunately it is not exactly a quantum leap from the first position to the second one though, and you can not stop misinformation and distortion in some people's minds. That Squid, is where education may well in fact have a role to play; not in the hippie, naive, rose-tinted glasses view where it solves everything, but where it does have some effective role to play in dispelling myths and broadening our appreciation of other people's cultures.

So this pathetic despicable group of gang rapists did in fact say the rape was targeted at us, at Australians. You say, I think, that it was they who made ethnicity the issue. I still think rape (first and foremost) AS a hate crime is the overriding issue because (and this ties in with my view on Xev's claim) it was a hate crime that many rapists would use anything to justify - mostly "she asked for it" (because she's Australian and in their sick minds more "loose" in this case - still goes back to the "she asked for it") but also other reasons. Ideologically related justifications are in fact prevalant Xev - just look at the widespread incidence of rape in war, and even in 'peacetime', such as the alarming incidence of rape with US servicemen as perpetrators in Japan (surprisingly common "we're protecting them so we're entitled to have them service us sexually" type mentality).

I would also dispute the claim that "a rape committed by an Australian is obviously not racially motivated" - rape crisis centres have dealt with rape victims whom have a Phillipino background, for example, who - because of the past association wih mail order brides - have been raped by Australian men because they are Filipino. There are other instances, of women who some men went after specifically because they fetishised their cultural background/ethnicity. Fetishes are fine, as long as its consensual!

Point taken that Australia was not as involved in imperialist adventures, Squid, I suppose we are just implicated by association with our historical looking towards "a great and powerful friend" in Britain first and then the US and thus supporting their foreign policies, as you prob well know. With a few exceptions such as wheat exports. But I'm not an expert here, these are just a few general comments.

Thanks for informing me about the gaming online identity issue. Very sad way to find some pride in your mother culture. I also can not see how/why putting down other people's culture can elevate your own, particularly when some have have the temerity to resent or hate the very country they're in. I think it boils down to exclusion which has to be addressed by all. My only quibble in this respect has to do with representation, especially cultural. Where are all the Asian, Aboriginal/ European faces on Neighbours??? Not many, just so it's vaguely more representative of Australian society. This isn't PC, just an accurate reflection.

You may be right Squid that I don't really receive much in the way of overt racism. It's prob more in the way people may make assumptions on appearance or first contact (Lebanese - her parents must be strict and oppress women etc), but then forming a revised impression upon knowing you.

These steretypes are sometimes valid! I agree there, Xev ... but I certainly don't toe the politically correct line about absurdly objecting to the slightest criticism! (I don't think others do either - it's the basis of ethnic humour!)

Lastly, I think that's one of the best parts of the Australian national psyche - the ability to be self-deprecating and knock ourselves (whatever background), all in good humour.

In all fairness I should point out that my family are christian (lapsed catholic) rather than Moslem. Lebanon is about 60/40 Moslem/ Christian I think. I don't deny some (of both religions) do put women down. It's a particular problem of the more fundamentalist interpretations of islam as I understand it. But its also present (and not nearly as widely acknowledged) in orthodox Judaism. All misogyny and oppression deserves to be sent out to some black hole somewhere!!

See you later. I'm going to put a few more homemade falafel on the barbie ...

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:bugeye:

 

Re: musings