i love christianity...

Discussion in 'Religion Archives' started by supernova_smash, Apr 17, 2002.

  1. Cris In search of Immortality Valued Senior Member

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    Tinker, truthseeker,

    Metaphors are most often used in artistic works of fiction and fantasy, of which the bible is probably the most well known.

    When texts are written that are intended to represent truth and facts then a full description of the fact is defined and for those items that are complex then examples are given and the use of metaphor is utilized to aid in understanding.

    The bible has no facts on which to draw so it skips any attempt to describe facts and goes straight to the use of metaphor and symbolism, especially vague ones so that the reader is free to add his own interpretation to whatever he feels the metaphor/symbol might mean.

    The result of this tactic, and where many believe the bible is true, is that everyone has adopted their own interpretations and then attempts to enforce them. This has further resulted in the creation of several hundred Christian sects and cults each with a different interpretation of what the bible might mean.

    Fortunately the real result is chaos and in this modern world where precision is becoming increasingly important then fewer people are prepared to accept such works of fiction such as the bible as being in any way useful. The chaos created by the bible and the widespread fracturing of Christian beliefs and dogma should ultimately aid in the death of this 2000-year-old monstrosity known as Christianity.

    Cris
     
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  3. Xev Registered Senior Member

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    Never to satisfaction.

    "But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me."

    Luke 19:22-27

    I fail to see how this could be taken any way but literally. Nor can you dispute the fact that Jesus 'damned' those who disagreed with him to hell.

    Cris: As usual, very well put indeed.
     
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  5. TruthSeeker Fancy Virtual Reality Monkey Valued Senior Member

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    Cris,

    Not very different from the Bible. The difference is that the Bible talks about God, who can't be explained through words. Then, metaphors are widely used to give the meaning. For example, my own metaphor about the water in the bottle explaining the spirit and the body respectively...


    Xev,

    I already explained this one once, somewhere else. The "enemy" there is not a physical enemy but a... spiritual one. I'll give some examples: greed, selfishness jealousy... those are the "demons" the Bible talk about.

    Another thing the Bible point out clearly is that our ONLY enemy is the Devil, which influences people to do whatever is unrighteous.

    Love,
    Nelson
     
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  7. noktvs Carnal-Siddha Registered Senior Member

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    Well first of all, it is unbalanced, not to mention extremely illogical. Anyone with even the slightest understanding of human psychology knows that suppressing an emotion is hazardess to your health (physically, mentally and emotionally). Hence the amount of fanaticism we see the world over by those who strictly adhere to organized religion.

    Another objection I have against this doctrine is that if you actually live your life this way (which most who profess to do so, in reality do not), if you flounder about your 'love' on all, without selection and discrimination, it loses it's value and becomes meaningless. It's like calling everything you see a specific color, 'blue' for instance. The sky is blue, the grass is blue, the apple is blue....ad infinitum. Blue loses it's meaning. Why love your enemy if they are your enemy? Rather love those deserving of your love and hate those deserving of your hate. Let's give a more specific example:

    Say you were married, and you were deeply in love with your spouse. You had a newborn child and were building a life for yourselves. One day, while you were out runnng an errand, some sick depraved psycho breaks into your house, rapes your wife and murders both her and your child. I think this would definetely classify as an 'enemy' in anybody's book. Would you love this person? They have devastated your life and took away the most important people, those who meant more than the world to you. Do they deserve your love? Or do they deserve to pay for what they have done. I say they deserve to pay.

    "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword"

    (Jesus Christ, Mt. 10:34)
     
  8. Tinker683 Registered Senior Member

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    98
    Cris,

    Well said. But I think it only furthers my point: Something that is subjective can't be reguarded as absolute truth. By defintion, it would be a contridiction.

    Truthseeker,

    Your play as mystisism is well done, but the way you construed the messages from Jesus begs the question: Why are you right, and everybody else in incorrect?

    Secondly, why should I not take the messages literally? How am I supposed to infer that the Gospel writers wrote it in metaphors? What if they were speaking factualy?

    And noktvs,

    Good point.

    Personally speaking, I wouldn't go out and butcher the man. No, I'd just presecute him to the furtherest entext of the law. I'd make sure the SoB never saw daylight again.

    And if anything, I'd vote to do something else entirely: I'd Scarlet brand him.

    Here's a nice, Chrisitian practice done during the witch-hunts that we could all adopt. Put some kind of tatoo on the guys forehead, thats universally defines him as "rapist", and then just let him go out in the public. I wonder how long the bastard would last. And one things for sure, he's love life would come to an abrupt end. WWonder how many ladies would want to date such a person that can't hide his past deeds >=|
     
  9. supernova_smash Registered Senior Member

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    31
    Truthseeker

    Sorry for the long delay between my replies

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    .

    Is this only limited to X-tians? Perhaps I should have been more specific in my critique. I think X-tianity's message is wonderful, and truly I [try to] live my life by about the same moral code that Christians have. Yet I do it just because I want to be nice. I don't dress it up by saying "It's what God wants" or because of an enoyable afterlife. I'm not saying that the basic morals are what are ignorant, but rather that X-tians seem to display this trait. Many are totally oblivious to the world around them and global activities [granted, there still are the ones who do seem to be informed

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    ]. I'm sorry, but I think Christianity narrows thinking and perhaps is a result of narrow thinking. Like I said ealier I grew up in a Catholic home/school, yet I don't believe a word of the Catholic faith. I think it takes a LOT MORE free-thinking and open-mindedness to think differently than my entire environment. Have you ever ONCE questioned the "accuracy" of the bible? Probably not. Now THAT is being ignorant.

    I can see how you mis-interpreted my original statement, my apologies. Why do X-tians think that they and ONLY THEY can live a moral life? Just because we are atheist doesn't mean we want life to suck for everyone! Afterall, we believe this is all we get; wouldn't we want to make it more enjoyable for everyone?
     
  10. TruthSeeker Fancy Virtual Reality Monkey Valued Senior Member

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    noktvs,

    I'm not talking about supressing your feelings. I'm not talking about pretending you Love your enemy or hiding your feelings about them. I'm talking about really Loving them.

    Love is never tiring. Love is extremely dynamic. If everyone Loved everyone, wars, discussions and violence would never exist. Is that enough for you...?

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    Well, Christianily speaking, God would never let such thing happen with a Christian....
    Normaly speaking, I say that it's hard to Love such person, but if you want reavenge, the bitterness in your Heart will only get the situation worse...

    No matter how hard this could be, I would say you would have to forgive him to have peace again.

    Eventhough I know I would not be able to...


    Tinker683,

    Love is the base of all Religions. It's written in Galatians 5:14 :

    "14 For the whole Law is fulfiled in one word, in the statement,
    "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."

    First, "the whole Law" is based on Love.
    Most of the metaphors that you and many people cite is from the Old Testament. The "Gospel" is from the New Testament. Actually, the New Testament is an explanation about the Old one...

    If they were speaking factually, I would say that before God (Love) ruled the world, in the barbarican ages (Old Testament, mostly) then, this would be man's violence, not God's, for God is Love.


    supernova_smash,

    In the Bible it's said that those who do miracles and bless people in God's name only for personal interest, is not recoginzed by God in Heavens... I would post the quote with I find it...

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    I don't need to. I've read "Love each other" and instantly accepted the Bible.

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    Most Christians believe that only Jesus can save people, only through Jesus can people go to Heaven. That's why they want everyone to be Christian, it's not that they think others are immoral, they think that the others will burn eternaly in the Hell; then they try to save others.

    I belive that the key of salvation is not to accept Jesus in your Heart but to accept Christ. It's a huge difference. Jesus is a person, Christ is an spirit, the Spirit of Love.

    Anyone who accept Love in one's Heart, will be saved, which ultimatly means that will live a "heavenly" life and go to Heaven after life. Living a Heavenly life is not only a moral one but also, a fulfilling one.

    Love,
    Nelson
     
  11. Xev Registered Senior Member

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    SAB. KJV

    Thank you, noktvs.

    Care to interpret that one, Nelson?

    Well let's see.....Let's look at Luke 19:26-27 specifically:

    KJV.

    It's quite clear from the preceding Scriptures that physical things, people, are being referred to.

    But, let's look at another translation:
    NIV.

    First off, we see from Luke 19:26 that Jesus is talking about people, actual things, not constructs.

    He wishes to be King over 'greed, selfishness and jealousy'? And how can you kill such things?

    We see that Jesus is
    A: Speaking in parables, you have that part right.
    B: Refering to actual people.

    Thugs never attack Christians?

    And, no, the desire for revenge does not make a situation worse....the unfulfilled desire for revenge does.

    Supernova:

    A more apt question would be:

    Why do you care what they think of you?

    Surely, as athiests, we are barred from political office in many places....the common fundie attacks on our (pardon, American?) constitution hurt us athiests a bit more but....

    Why should we care what they think? Does it matter whether they think we are amoral or immoral? Will that make us amoral or immoral?

    No.
     
  12. noktvs Carnal-Siddha Registered Senior Member

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    41
    TruthSeeker,



    Maybe you misunderstood what I was saying. I wasn't talking about supressing love, but I meant supressing anger. It would only be natural for someone to feel anger against an act like I described in my other post.
    So you admit that what I'm saying is correct? That you wouldn't be able to love such an enemy? There are other alternatives to handeling this situation. Tinker683 brought up a few good suggestions. And here's another thought; For those who practice magic/sorcery, you could rid the world of such a person and not have to go to prison for it. What if you could do such a thing? Wouldn't it satisfy anger to some extent?
    Never gonna happen! And why would you want discussions to cease to exsist? What I was trying to get at with my "everything is blue" argument is that everything contains the seed of it's opposite. The whole yin and yang, duality metaphor is not really a metaphor, but represents reality. Male/Female, Black/White, Up/Down Love/Hate , etc... This is the way of things on our earth. Those who are out of balance project too far on one side of the coin and wind up in the end either missing the whole picture (i.e. not having a clue) or eventualy they will act out the opposite of what they were trying to do (think of all the televangelists that preach and preach and preach on how 'sinful' sexual love is and then they're on the news getting busted with a prostitute). I feel it is in fact dangerous to focus on one side of any duality and act as the other does not exsist. You wind up being uncounsciously draw to the other side. "a god ignored is a demon born".
    Who told you that? Does this mean that you don't take precaustions in this world, because you think God is protecting you? If so, my advice would be to wake up.

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    Really, I don't mean that in a rude way, but the world is full of crazy folks and it might be nice to feel that they can't do anything to you because you are a Christian, but that is just naive. Even historically we see examples of Christians being persecuted and murdered. Rememeber the whole "Romans feeding Christians to the lions" atrocity? And to bring it more up to date, what about Sarajevo? Ok so you may think "Well, these aren't REALLY Christians, so that is why God lets them be murdered and raped." Ok, let's go back to the bible:

    Christ talking to his disciples:

    "But before all these things, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake"

    (Lk. 21:12)

    and also

    "And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death "

    (Lk. 21:16)

    and one more for now...

    "And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep."

    (Acts 7: 59-60)




    Xev,
    No problem. I think many Christians tend to downplay the 'hard sayings' of Christ and focus on the 'everything is love' doctrines, which I just don't see when reading the bible as a whole. If you want to understand a book (any book), you have to take things in context, and analyze the entire book, not just the parts you like, especially if you are going to follow that book as the rule of your life.


    BTW, It's my Birthday and I'm glad to be alive!!!

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    (noktvs does a little dance around the house, wahooo!!)
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2002
  13. LIGHTBEING Registered Senior Member

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    639
    Wow, that's a pretty ignorant thing to say!!!!! God would never allow this to happen to a Christian but "He" would look the other way, if it were someone like me, whom he has created(Biblically speaking ofcoarse)
     
  14. TruthSeeker Fancy Virtual Reality Monkey Valued Senior Member

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    Xev,

    Sure I interpret it...

    Matthew 10:32-35 :

    Christ (Jesus)=Love
    Father (God)=Love

    "32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. "

    Whoever accept Love will be accepted by It...

    "33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven."

    If you don't accept Love, you won't be accepted by It.


    Those two together mean that if you are loving and kind with people they will act accordingly.

    Matthew 7:1-2 :

    "1 Do not judge lest you be judged.
    2 For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standart of measure, it will be measured to you."

    Continuing...

    "34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. "

    He came to change the world...

    "35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law."

    It means that some people even from your family will disagree with you, if you turn to God, for they don't understand Him...


    I will continue it later...
     
  15. Avatar smoking revolver Valued Senior Member

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    19,083
    Seeker, I'm seeing you being more and more sinking in that everything-is-love phylosophy. Don't you think that you theories are too much seperated from the real situation tht we have here and will always have. If you look @ the present world then there is too much suffering (less thn in other centuries though) to say tht love manestafetes over all. And human nature won't change. Humans love wars, they love to fight and play dirty. It's a part of us and if we destroy tht part we destroy ourselves. You say tht god is love, but you can not prove tht there is actually a god - ok I quess noone can do that

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    , but prove tht we have a need for a god. Also this your phylosophy might appear very fragile in the future- when someone maybe starts to hate you or kills all your family or your girlfriend leaves you (I "pray" this won't happen) and if you start to lose your faith in love then it will be a catostrophe for you.

    In conclusion-> I think tht yhou have to work a little more on your life's phylosophy and perception. ok- include love in it, but don't also put all your money on it

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    Cheers!
     
  16. Xev Registered Senior Member

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    noktvs: Happy birthday, ja!

    Nelson:

    Dear sweet christ. I cannot believe that you are my age.

    If you are loving and kind, only loving and kind, people will walk all over you. The trick, Nelson, is to protect yourself yet not lose sight of kindness and decency.

    Yeah, well I won't argue with you there! He came, by his own admission, to start wars.

    Ah, pity this is one of the few Biblical predictions to come true.

    Unfortunatly, that interpretation is not borne out by other Scriptures

    Of course, 1 John 4:21 supports you....true contradictory form

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    Lightbeing:
    We're talking about a God who destroys fig trees for not bearing fruit out of season......you are expecting what?

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  17. TruthSeeker Fancy Virtual Reality Monkey Valued Senior Member

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    Avatar and Xev,

    You already did!

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    We need a God, we need Love.

    Alrady did...
    I almost destroied my Philosophy. I almost started to hate. Became sad and unkind. She almost kick me out of her life. Until I found out that I should trust myself more. Then, I grew up with it and now I'm manifestating what I want through my attitude in relation to life: Loving each day more and being joyful in this Love. That's how things for me and my ex-girlfriend are each day better. And God knows what will happen next!

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    Look you two, if you prefer the world like it is nowdays, fine, take it. But I don't. I prefer to change it. That's my Philosophy. That's the way I found out that the world can be changed: by Loving each other Unconditionally. And anyone can't prove this wrong to me as it manifest greatfully in my life.

    "Where you see a desert, I see an Ocean of Love where everyday we have the opportunity to change the world."
    Me!

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    Love,
    Nelson
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2002
  18. Avatar smoking revolver Valued Senior Member

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    I don't see a desert. To me our present time seems wondorous and beautiful. You do not value what you have got , Seeker. If you deny our world, it can pay you back

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    Cheers and Good Luck!
     
  19. Xelios We're setting you adrift idiot Registered Senior Member

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    I've noticed theists often think of atheists as the people who are on the brink of suicide because thier life sucks. Sorry, that's just not the case.

    We may need love, but we don't need some supernatural omniscient being and a promise of everlasting life in paradise to show love to our fellow human beings. And by the way, if you only give your love to others because you have to do it in order to get into heaven it's not really love at all.
     
  20. Xev Registered Senior Member

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    Wishfull thinking, indeed, Xelios.

    Life is wonderful.

    Nelson:
    We hardly need to worship God. I love, and I am an athiest. Deal!

    To assume that your way is the only way is the height of arrogance. Does your ego know no bounds?!
     
  21. Jan Ardena Valued Senior Member

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    Xev,

    Matthew 10:32
    Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
    10:33
    But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
    10:34
    Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
    10:35
    For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.


    As far as I know, there is nowhere is history where Jesus used an actual sword, so obviously his use of the term ‘sword’ is symbolic.
    This is the age of Kali-yuga, the age of hypocracy and quarrel, there can be no peace on earth, that is natures law. But Jesus wanted to bring about peace in the heart, realisation of 'self' for whoever cared to listen and follow. So trying to create peace on earth is a futile exercise as we can see from the current global situation.
    Jesus, being vaishnav, was well aware of this knowledge.

    When there is a predominance of cheating, lying, sloth, sleepiness, violence, depression, lamentation, bewilderment, fear and poverty, that age is Kali, the age of the mode of ignorance

    In Kali-yuga men will be wretched and controlled by women. They will reject their fathers, brothers, other relatives and friends and will instead associate with the sisters and brothers of their wives. Thus their conception of friendship will be based exclusively on sexual ties.

    Uncultured men will accept charity on behalf of the Lord and will earn their livelihood by making a show of austerity and wearing a mendincants dress. Those who know nothing about religion will mount a high seat and presume to speak on religious principles.

    In Kali-yuga men will develop hatred for each other even over a few coins. Giving up all friendly relations, they will be ready to lose their own lives and kill even their own relatives.

    In the age of Kali people’s intelligence will be diverted by atheism., and they will almost never offer sacrifice to the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is the supreme spiritual master of the universe. Although the great personalities who control the three worlds all bow down to the lotus feet of the Supreme Lord, the petty and miserable human beings of this age will not do so.


    Bhagavat Purana.

    In order to progress spiritualy, one must understand that he/she is not this gross/subtle material body, and so anything in relation to the body does not actually belong to ‘you’ including family members, this identification of body as self is the cause of bondage in the material world. Maya or illusion.

    Love.

    Jan Ardena.
     
  22. TruthSeeker Fancy Virtual Reality Monkey Valued Senior Member

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    Avatar and Xelios,

    That's not what I meant by desert. I was talking about the world's problems like wars, hate, etc...

    Besides that, there are LOTS of atheists which lives sucks... much more then the one's who have good lives... as long as I know...

    Xelios,

    It's said in Matthew 15:7-9 :

    Matthew 15:7-9 :

    "7 You hypohypocrites, rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you, saying,
    8 'THIS PEOPLE HONORS ME WITH THEIR LIPS,
    BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR AWAY FROM ME
    9 BUT IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME,
    TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE PRECEPTS OF MEN"

    What does this means? It means that those who worship Him for their own interests (go to Heaven, for instance) are not recognized by Him, as Christians.

    For someone to be really Christian and recognized by God as so, intention is absolutly necessary. The intention part is read "but their Heart is far away from me". This means that they don't have the intetion to worship Him, they just do it to go to Heaven, or anything in their own interests.


    Xev,

    Your Love is far away from Unconditional, the True Love...

    Who said that? I clearly said:

    MY Philosophy. I'm not saying that this works for everyone, that this is the only path (eventhough it seems the easiest and fastest one...)

    Again, as I said, it works very well for me...

    Love,
    Nelson
     
  23. TruthSeeker Fancy Virtual Reality Monkey Valued Senior Member

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