Hurry! Quick! Close the door! Cattle are escaping!

Discussion in 'Business & Economics' started by Michael, Dec 24, 2012.

  1. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    Have you ever stopped to think that gas is too cheap in Venezuela? That because its cheap people are wasting it? That at a higher price this LIMITED resource would be better used? At what cost does cheap gasoline extract from the society? I mean, what you're failing to notice is the failing medical system, schools, opportunity, roads, cities, etc.... The price isn't low because Venezuela is efficient at extracting oil, they're subsidizing the costs by selling oil overseas.

    In a free market yes gasoline would cost more, but it'd also be used more wisely. The Capital saved by not having to subsidize fuel could then instead be invested in other things like fixing the broken sewers, the poor roads, the polluted cities, the poor schools. IF in the hands of private businesses, this capital is used the most efficiently as everyone competes to offer the best services for the limited capital.

    Think what Venezuela will look like (of Iran, or KSA, etc,,,) when the 'cheap' oil runs dry.
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  3. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    There are no free markets, but make no mistake, even with the poorly practiced Crony Capitalism of China, life there is much much MUCH better than under socialism. If they're smart, they'll learn from us and move towards free-market Capitalism. Will that happen? Given it was lost here in the USA and was OUR Entire culture and we had a Constitution to protect it, maybe not.... ... But, maybe so? Lets just see.
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  5. Carcano Valued Senior Member

    Hopefully they will learn from the disastrous historical examples provided by both extremes.

    What they should have done is...

    1. Restrict voting rights to those citizens who can pass an aptitude test on constitutional law.

    2. Restrict banking to credit union systems where the depositors vote for the board once a year.

    3. Restrict working hour requirements to 50 hours a week maximum.

    4. Restrict all advertising to strictly factual content and no images other than of the product.

    5. Restrict manufacturing to a list of acceptable raw materials. If a company wants to make clothing it must be of natural fabrics with no advertising visible. If a company wants to make lamps they must be of solid brass/bronze/pewter or wood...not electroplated pot metal or spray painted resin. etc. etc. etc.
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2013
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  7. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    How is the freedom to conduct voluntary trade in peace 'extreme'? AFAIAC it isn't extreme, we only think it's extreme because of the way things are framed and taught to us. Citizens, now little more than Tax Cattle, have come to believe the highly government controlled and government regulated and government manipulated 'market' is an example of Capitalism and free-trade. Well, it isn't. Exactly the opposite is true. Whereas in the time of Franklin A penny SAVED (Capital) was a penny earned (Prosperity). Now such thinking is framed as 'Old Fashioned' as if the basic needs and desires of the human species have somehow fundamentally changed... no more is true that saying the Laws of Gravity are 'Old Fashioned'. So-called 'free' citizens can not even peaceful choose their own profession without getting permission (many times at the expense of hundreds of thousands of dollars) from their so-called Servants, are Taxed of their labor (something they own), and are forced every minute of every day through threat of violence to conduct trade in USD...

    Believe me, we ARE extreme but NOT extreme free-market Capitalists. We're extreme Progressive Fascists and our poor quality of life is directly linked to and reflected in this.

    OR, better yet, get rid of the influence of government in our lives so that basic freedoms are upheld, private property protected and people allowed to 'Vote' with their dollars. Many HighSchool graduates who are qualified by Government School diploma can't even read. With a government out of our lives, we don't have to worry about what the dumb asses are trying to vote for themselves, Example: Obama Phones.

    So we can end up voting in demagogues into our Banking system!? GW Bush Jr running a Bank? Oh Gods no! How about a free-market in currency so that people have access to various currencies for various needs at different times in their lives. A 'Hard' currency like gold is useful for retirees because it can't be printed and stolen by a Central Bank. A quirky online currency like bitcoins can be used by the young who are game to have access to credit from people willing to take big risks for big rewards. Companies like Apple could offer currencies. Your town can offer currencies. When the free-market is allowed to work, then who knows what great ideas will be concocted.

    Also, if you think of your MONEY as your proportional VOTE then you DO vote for the Board each and every time you decide to do business with that Bank.

    During busy times I wouldn't be able to complete my job in that limited time frame. Not to mention 50 is an arbitrary one-size shoe fits all answer. Its an 'aesthetic' you'd like to see as you fee 50 hours is too much time at work (and it is). Kind of like wanting to see all houses painted white because its pleasing. But the truth is there will be times when people want to work their arses off (say at the start of a new business or to save for a vacation or to pay a bill or whatever). And other times when they won't. It depends on the person, their age, physical drive, etc...

    Think of it like this, suppose a family of three wanted their mother to remain at home while the father worked. BUT to do so meant he had to work 60 hours a week OR his wife could work and put their child in day supervision. Are you going to tell them they have to put their kids in a place away from their mother?! I don't think so.

    In a free market no one would NEED to work more than 50 hours a week to live an average life. Just as anyone can eat well if they go to the store and spend money wisely. Obesity is our epidemic not starvation. Without government regulation and inflation and debt (basically, without government), we'd have a life like it was, where a single income supported a family of 5.

    Again, this is an aesthetic argument. In a free market (even in our regulated market) false advertising is breaking a contract and can be libel to see just recourse through the Law administered by the courts. But, seeing a happy girl kissing a boy while drinking a coke, well, that's OK. The real question is WHY after 12 years of Government School do people have such little critical thinking skills are they so easily swayed by some of these idiotic commercials?

    Also, it's probably more peer-pressure than commercials. I mean, it was the norm 100 years ago to have 4 adults per child for pretty much all day long. Now it's one adult and 50 children. They pretty much raise themselves. Which is why so many 'adults' act at 30 like children. They've spent 12 years in a Lord of the Flies Government School 'learning' from their peers. I don't see ads on TV for arm length Tattoos and Chest tattoos but I see a lot of teens with tattoos. A young girl with a skull on her chest is pretty sick in my opinion BUT that's still only an aesthetic. I'd argue peer-pressure as we see now didn't really exist until Government Schools were invented and now so-called adults are normalized to peer pressure.

    Pretty sad if you think about it.

    Again, I think you're making aesthetic arguments not economic argumentation. I personally like my iron skillet but I also like my Teflon frying pan! I like my feather pillow, but I also like my plastic ergonomic keyboard

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    Win-Win trading IS Civilization. When you reach in and tamper with that, you skew and even destroy Civilization itself. As could be seen in Communist China where there were no win-win trades knowingly being made (some where made, it was just unknown as there was no market). Without the free-market they unintentionally reduced a 5000 year old Civilization to little more than a husk of itself.
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2013
  8. Carcano Valued Senior Member

    Absolute freedom is one extreme...absolute government control is another.

    Freedom is desirable for the ethical...and undesirable for the unethical. And as we know, every population includes the full spectrum of intelligence and ethics on one side, stupidity and malice on the other...and everything in between.

    'We the people' is not some singular monolithic entity. It includes the mentally retarded, the insane, the malicious, genius, saints and sinners.
  9. Carcano Valued Senior Member

    Yes, America was founded as a liberation movement...and this obsession with freedom has become part of the mythos of patriotism.

    This is what makes it so dangerous...when people start reasoning with their emotions.
  10. Carcano Valued Senior Member

    I agree...capitalism has been largely replaced with creditism.

    Instead of saving and investing profit from production...people now assume that more credit is an entitlement from heaven and the answer to every problem.

    This happens at the micro scale all the way up to how government finances its accounts.
  11. Carcano Valued Senior Member

    Voting with dollars would be fine if ALL buyers and sellers were ethical...but they are not.
  12. Carcano Valued Senior Member

    What do political demagogues have to do with Credit Unions?
  13. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    If the board members are voted on, which would mean people with a LOT of money in the union are subject to the whims of people with hardly any money, then this sets up a situation where the person with little money, and perhaps little understanding in monetary affairs (hence so little money) has equal say in board members. For example, the person with a lot of money may want the market to set the interest rates, or worse, he may want to try and set them in accordance to his personal investments. Likewise, the spendthrift may want cheap money to maintain his lifestyle of money for nothing. This sets of an opportunity for demagoguery which is exactly what has happened with our government as they have gotten more and more involved in our economy.

    The ideal solution is IMO a free market in both banks, unions and money itself.
  14. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    I agree that arguing from emotion is unproductive and worse, illogical, however; don't you reason that moral behavior must align with free non-violent interaction? I mean, as soon as we deviate from free peaceful interaction and innate force, is that not logically immoral? Perhaps the explanation for why the Islamic Republics fail to provide prosperous peaceful societies, is because there is no god. Perhaps the explanation for why the Democratic Republics are now failing to provide prosperous peaceful societies, is because they are inherently violent (as Kant makes clear). It may be that the reason why Americans saw the greatest increases in the the standard of living of any people ever, in the 1800s was because government was so small and had little effect in the daily lives of most Americans. Very very unlike today, and unlike then, our standard of living is decreasing.
  15. Carcano Valued Senior Member

    All banking institutions make money from the SPREAD between what interest they pay to depositors and what interest they collect from borrowers...adjusted for inflation.

    So within the credit union there will always be a healthy struggle between depositors and borrowers...and between other competing credit unions.

    With private banking there is no feedback loop of risk assessment connecting with depositors until its too late and there is a bank run...or a cascade of bank runs that fall like dominos.
  16. Carcano Valued Senior Member

    Force is often necessary because there is both good and evil...and a necessary struggle between them. This is what gives authors of literature all their raw material for epic fiction.

    From a practical standpoint, all nations are founded by a military force staking out and defending a piece of land. The civilians use that force as the foundation for the existence of a legal system, an infrastructure of roads, bridges, aqueducts, and a market for their production and consumption.
  17. Carcano Valued Senior Member

    Yes, aesthetics are very important, but limiting weekly work hours to 50 has more to do with public health.

    There are suburban streets in my city with laws prohibiting certain house colours, and this should also be applied to commercial buildings downtown.
  18. Carcano Valued Senior Member

    It is about aesthetics to some extent, which would be perfectly valid in and of itself...but more importantly its about market distortions and wasted resources.

    Companies that cannot advertise cannot create a distorted public view of their products and thus a distorted price discovery.

    Companies that cannot advertise cannot waste resources in creating this distorted image, thus adding to their costs and the eventual retail price.

    Even more disastrous is the advertising of political parties and religions. Theres nothing wrong with ethical arguments or metaphysical speculation...but when these things are encapsulated in a package of marketing prophesy and unprovable otherworldy visions, this is where it crosses over into fraudulent territory.
  19. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    Sure. Without government, there are subsistence farmers (maybe. We have no examples of this, and the tragedy of the commons would tend to limit their existence, but the situation is theoretically possible). With a good government there are profit-making apple selling farmers, with roads to bring customers and money to employ in transactions and so forth. That's why the farmers get together and form a government for themselves.

    Of course, there's the problem of freeloaders, mooches, thieves, and other "libertarians" whining about paying for the dang thing, always after they've taken full advantage of it of course - - - -

    No such contract exists, in your free market there - no one is forced to sign contracts, right? So the false advertisers just don't sign them.
  20. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    I have no problem with credit unions, as a matter of fact I used to belong to one. Most credit Unions I belonged to restrict membership to those in the Union they represent which is how they offer lower interest rates as there's a sort of allegiance to the Union extending into credit. Which is perfectly fine by me. However, this doesn't mean there aren't some well run banks. I leave it to the Free individual to decide where to place their money, or some of it, and where to seek credit.

    Credit Unions can also extend loans that can't be repaid and Credit Unions generally have a much higher lending standard. This may not be suitable to some people at certain times in their lives. Not to mention, if they don't belong to that Credit Union then they couldn't access it anyway.
  21. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    A) Traditionally Farmers were overrun by "freeloaders", the most successful of whom called themselves a Government. Continued occupation required some special ways of thinking on the part of the Farmers. Which is why they were convinced their "government" were representatives of The Gods and usually one of them was a God, its still common in the Islamic Republics to think Dear Leader represents The God.

    Let's stop and think about the Islamic Republic of Iran. Do YOU think their Government is protecting the Iranian public from freeloaders or IS the freeloader? Is the North Korean Government protecting the public from freeloaders of IS the freeloader? Which is it? Because believe it or not, those poor propagandized Citizens LOVE their government (almost as you do yours). They honestly believe their government is protecting them against those scary evil free-market Capitalists. Pretty much just as you think your government is protection you from *GASP* Toyota, Google, Apple, *SHUDDER* Crocs, Honda, Applebee's,.....

    B) You keep going back to this freeloader problem. You seem so worried about it.... but its only seeming, you're not really worried about freeloading or you'd be pissed off AT GOVERNMENT. You'd stop and recognize the BIGGEST freeloader of them all IS the Government. It always has been. AND WORSE still this HUGE FREELOADER, aka Government, not only freeloads, but can still this very day initiate the use of force against the people in society legally.

    See, at the end if the day this is what differentiates the private free-market from the government, the use of force. Do you understand that? It's so bad now that Laborers are taxed of their own god damn labor. That IS Slavery. We sell Bonds on unborn children's future productivity. In a very real sense we are selling them out. We are selling their prosperity away. You beloved Public Unions are doing that. Think about that. These Public Unions offer a product so shitty, that they have to force people to accept the service at the literal point of a gun. As in goons in blue clown suites will come to your house with gun in hand and take their pound of flesh. THAT is barbaric.

    Why don't you give me some examples of freeloading you seem to be so worried about.

    C) One more time, prosperity comes FROM the free market exchange. The history of roads is quite clear if you cared to do some research Roads were maintained by toll and paid for use per every mile where a booth keeper in charge of that stretch of road tolled it. The amount charged varied depending on the size of the cart, the width of the wheels, etc.... example, if your had a light cart with fat wheels, you were charged much less than someone with a heavy cart and thin width wheels because these would cut into the road. These roads were free market roads. Do you understand now? The history of roads, like ALL OF CIVILIZATION is that of the free market developing something and the Government using force to take it, then over tax people, and then claim they (the government) are needed because, and would say, YOU USE THE ROADS! Don't want freeloaders, never mind the fat arsed King riding by on His royal roads paid for by you.

    It's called thuggery and forms the bases of all major problems in modern world. Our lovely government just sent Freedom-Troops with Peace-Guns to 35 Nations in Africa because it was thought that the Chinese built and/or paid for roads and schools and shoe factories where African people can work if they freely chose to do so, was Taking Advantage of this Resource-Rich, errr... Underdeveloped Continent. YOUR Fascist Government wants the TAX that can be extracted out of African riches. It knows the price mechanism of a semblance of a market will ensure it see nice big fat TAX revenues and so with gun in hand is going to HELP Africans by helping our Large Sate-Backed Corporations. This is EVIL And you support it because at the end of the day, you want what is is those African riches are giving you.

    That is NOT free market Capitalism. That IS regulated unfree-market Corporatism. Two completely different markets and social structures.

    D) Why don't you take your logical assumption that Government I'd good and free markets are bad, to its logical conclusion. All Government and NO free markets. Does history suggest that MORE Government equates to more prosperity? If not, then WHIY? Why not? Why is it that as freeloading increases, errrr... I mean government, social prosperity reduces. Our "Progressive" Democratic friends in Government aim to grow themselves up from 20% to 25% GDP. They want a permanent 1 in every 4 transactions to involve coercion. Do you THINK that life is going to be getting better as we increase freeloading up to quarter of all transactions?

    Well, lucky us, we get to live through it.

    E) A contract is included in the product you buy usually a warranty. If we lived in a free market Capitalistic society, contracts would be offered if is facilitated free trade. It's really that simple. if a store selling fruits thought they'd get more customers by offering a contract to return any and all fruit just because you didn't like the look of it, or taste, then they'd offer these contract. Oh, and they already do.
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2013
  22. billvon Valued Senior Member

    All pure ideologies invariably fail. Communism? Great idea, lots of problems in implementation. Capitalism? Sounds great - as long as you have laws to prevent Standard Oils. Socialism? Another good idea, but again problems in practice.

    The reason the American system works as well as it does is that we're not blind slaves to any one ideology - we use pieces of each. Socialist roads and military. Capitalist consumer market. Communist national parks. Use each system where it works.
  23. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

    Actually, it seems that humans started out pre-Civilization trading voluntarily and actually helping one another. Oncd the number of humans got sufficient we began farming, a labor intensive business. Thus through free trade we created Civilization. Obviously you need Capital (through free trade) to build a City/Village BEFORE an unproductive government, thus Civilization predates Government. Not long after, some groups of humans learned that stealing the labor / farm produce was far easier than to create it. Enslaving the farmer and his children worked quite well once you convinced him it was for his own good to be cooperative. That's pretty much where we are at today. We don't call it Labor Tax, now, it's Income Tax. We don't call it Bonded Labor, we just shortened it to Bond.

    Free market cooperation is our default disposition and it has its own ways of regulating unwanted interactions peacefully. Like word of mouth, or refusal of future trade, and recourse to the court if worse comes to worse.

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