Hurry! Quick! Close the door! Cattle are escaping!

Discussion in 'Business & Economics' started by Michael, Dec 24, 2012.

  1. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    “Trench Warfare” And “Civil War” Over Confiscatory Taxes In France

    Alain Afflelou: “Those who are in the 75% income-tax bracket may go well beyond 90% taxation.”


    How DARE he try to weasel out of his INCOME TAX that he owes the Nation of France - at least according to the populace vote [gotta love democracy]. I mean, hey, the populace isn't jealous of his good fortune and no no no, they aren't try to steal from him (and give to them) no no no.... they only want to ensure he pays HIS FAIR SHARE.

    I mean: HE USES THE ROADS!


    Never mind this man has worked his arse off day in and day out to provide the public with the products they desired at a price they wanted them at. No, that's not enough. He's a "Citizen". He's "French". He drives on the roads (paid for by his gasoline tax, and rent seeking activities like his drivers licence and registration fees and a million and one other taxes.... oh, but never mind that). The politician demagogues (aka: French "government") sold as many Bonds on their children as they can, there's not much more they can squeeze out of their kids, so, it's time to make this personal. And get this, he's already paid. Now he just wants to get the F-out.


    His crime: Trying to escape the Farm!

    No no no... you're not tax-cattle. You're a "Free" Citizen.
    Just keep telling yourself that.
     
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  3. pjdude1219 screw watergate i want to know about zaragate Valued Senior Member

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  5. Read-Only Valued Senior Member

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    Yep, those here who know you had no problem deciding which side of this issue you would take. We're well aware that you think that anyone who works - something you won't do - and those who have some money ALL owe you a living.

    Can't help but wonder how long you'd last if you lived in a place like North Korea or Somolia.
     
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  7. pjdude1219 screw watergate i want to know about zaragate Valued Senior Member

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    yeah the ethical one.
    look princess I know you can't stand me because well i'm a liberal and such a ethical postion is anthama to youbut guess you know exactly fuck all about me so kindly keep your prejudices to your self.

    good for you and when your down you can just keep pretending everything you are is because of just your self. did you even read the article. no of course not if you did you'd ask someone to look up the entire bibliography for you because you'd be too damn lazy to do it yourself.




    also if you'd bother to read rather than just rely on personal attacks you'll note no where did I object to what he did but rather the language he used to explain his reasoning.
     
  8. Read-Only Valued Senior Member

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    Sure enough - wrong on ALL counts, as usual. I most certainly DID read the article. And the ONLY thing you and I agree on was his choice of language. I found it offensive and completely unnecessary. Anyone who cannot make their point without it is a stupid barbarian.
     
  9. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    Tell you what: we'll only tax him for the money he made off those of his customers who used the roads to get to his stores.

    That sound more fair?
     
  10. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    Working hard is not the same as working efficiently nor smart. No one is 'entitled' to anything just because they 'work hard'. Suppose someone 'works hard' on their diet - this doesn't mean the person is 'entitled' to magically lose weight. Perhaps they think getting off the couch once a day is 'working hard'. Or perhaps they think drinking diet Coke is 'really working hard on my diet'. Really doesn't reward a person's perception of "working hard". I know someone who spends a lot of time working on his music - everyone thinks he sucks.

    He's not 'entitled' to be a Rockstar because he 'works hard on singing'.

    Do YOU understand this simple concept? Society doesn't owe him Rock-God status because he works hard.

    That aside, the entire 'article' was written as if everything in this world is win-lose. The Win/Lose fallacy is made by most everyone - seemingly endlessly. People who are "Rich", in a free-market, only get "Rich" though Win-Win trades. That's why smart phone supercomptures that fit in your pocket cost as low as $250 now. Take Alain Afflelou as a classic example. He started an eyewear company. You'd ONLY purchase his eyeware if you wanted to. No one would make you. And there are plenty of other eyewear to chose from.

    So, when he made money for himself - he only did so by making someone else's life that much better. Compare with the ingrates he worked so hard for. These same jack-asses, now that they have their eyeware - they want to 'renegotiate' their deal and take a bit more of the money from him. So, while they were happy to walk into his store and agree to pay $200 for a pair of glasses, shake hands, and be merrily on their way. As soon as they got a chance - into the ballot box they marched and decided, you know, I think I really only should have paid $20 for those glasses, I think I'll use the excuse "The Nation of France" and "You use the roads" and steal back that $190 and give it to myself and my fellow ingrates.

    Welcome to a fundamental flaw in Democracy. For decades you've been demagogued to the point you can't see Win-Win if it smacked you in the face. ALL you can see if Win-Lose, even when the facts are there for everyone to see otherwise.


    You may want to ask yourself why society has gotten to the point where an obvious Win-Win is seen as a Win-Lose.
    You were TRAINED to see Win-Lose. The State NEEDS you to see Win-Lose. That's WHY you're a Progressive. Stealing in the name of the "Nation" is still stealing.


    And get this, he's paid his tax and he just wants the f*ck out. Oh no no no.... sorry little Tax Cattle... did you think you were Free Range. Um, nope. Now pick Obomney or Rombama, Oboney, GOOD - NOW get back in your god damn stall and pay for them "FREE" roads.
     
  11. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    Maybe he should pay for them to take his eyeware as well?

    That sound more fair?


    Starting to see the stupidity a little bit? If someone USES the roads - then THAT person should pay for their use. We usually do this via tax in the gasoline (along with a shit load of inefficient rent seeking activities). If you go to the MALL (where these eyeglass stores are locted) ... well, guess what iceaura, the PARKING is for FREE and you get free AIR-CONDITIONING and free fulled cleaned AMENITIES... clean nice 'roads' to walk along..... and etc..... ALL of which he does pay for along with all the other shop owners.

    Maybe you think the customers should pay for parking, pay for air conditioning, pay for amenities, and etc...? Is that the sort of society you prefer iceaura? Oh, of course not - at least not while we can still steal. Well, get this, keep stealing and that's where we're headed. You can already see it in the parking lots that charge if you don't buy something worth a certain amount. Or for a limited time.

    Why accept voluntary free-trade when stealing what's left in the shop owners pocked is up for the taking.
     
  12. Carcano Valued Senior Member

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    Our society is indeed a dairy farm where the citizens are milked...but there are two forces doing the milking.

    The first is government which milks the middle and upper class while benefiting the lower class.

    And the second is the corporate elite, who are a hundred times more destructive. What makes them so powerful is the medium of advertising...which bombards and exploits everyone without discrimination with its message of banal vacuous servitude. Even modern music is largely a form of advertising.

    No one can turn it off...or even vote for regime change.
     
  13. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    Yes! And so any businessman who uses the roads to bring customers to his store should pay for them, in proportion to how much money he makes off those customers. Anyone who isn't stupid can see that immediately, and only stupid people would complain about something so obvious.

    We arrange for that, at our effort and expense, and after making his life easy by fronting him the roads and so forth so he can open a store without as much effort as building his own, we tax him to get our money back that we fronted. No problem - he makes lots of money without having to build his own roads and grid and so forth, we get a chance to buy eyeglasses and stuff we need in return for our efforts and expense building him the roads etc. Win Win.
     
  14. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    Business owners don't ship customers to their shops. People volunteer to to take themselves to the store. Some people take a train (and they pay for the ride) some people bike, some people walk, some people drive etc... Each of these people will pay for their travel expense. The use of the train will involve a ticket and the "money" will economise the trains. Likewise, use a car a lot, pay for YOUR USE through gasoline taxes OR tolls.


    Once more, the shop owner most certainly does NOT pay to ship customers to his or her store. Unlike government rent seeking activities like car rego, no one forces you to go to the mall. He'll, you can buy online if you like. Also when the shop owner does use the roads he pays in fuel and other taxes by having to pay for shipping. See, The shop owner is ALSO a customer. And likewise, the trucker who delivers his supplies (his truck is his shop) pays for his use of the roacs BUT he too is also a customer. He imiports stuff or contracts with a shipping company. That owner is a customer too.

    See how it works?

    You're just picking on the "rich" eyeglass shop owner because you want to take his money.

    WHY?

    Try and artificially raise the price on any part of this delicate system and you will create an imbalance that will be passed along in the economy of each and every step. Which filters down and HAMMERS the poorest one way or another.



    Violence doesn't create prosperity only true free market Win Win trades can do that.



    Lastly, you can volunteer to transact in a new currency IF you really do think the eyeware shop owner is screwing you over by offering you cheap nice eyeware. Or you could in a truly free society with competing currency.
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2012
  15. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    How is Apple advertising directly harming someone? It's not Apple that's selling Bond's back-stopped by your children's future labor to pay for pensions of Public Union Employees today. When Apple sells a Bond, if they're not economical Apple goes broke and the Bond holder does so too. Not so with the government - there is no "going broke". Apple isn't using inflation to destroy your labor. Apple isn't manipulating the price of your labor down to zero. If I don't buy Apple I have no fear of going to prison. Try not paying for them FREE roads. See how true,y FREE you are. It's not Apple invading other nations and now is even murdering our own Citizens with drones. Apple isn't the largest polluter in the history of the world.

    I'll gladly take my chances with Apple and a commercial or two (I don't watch TV so I don't really see many except when they preceded a couple YouTube channels).
     
  16. Carcano Valued Senior Member

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    An iphone costs about $650 with a production cost of approx $200...the difference minus research and administration costs is exactly how much they have harmed the buyers, who have shelled out the damage only on account of the world's best advertising.

    Yes, Apple currently has some of the best advertising in the corporate world.

    If Apple chose to manufacture the iphone in your community while diminishing advertising costs almost to zero, the labour costs would have stayed in your own economy benefiting your life in a hundred different ways, while still providing you with a discount over the current retail price.
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2012
  17. Carcano Valued Senior Member

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    Lots of people dont pay for them free roads, along with many other benefits governments provide.

    Apple provides nothing free to anyone.
     
  18. Carcano Valued Senior Member

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    This is what happens when corporations are allowed to pay for the successful careers of politicians...they end up being the men behind the curtain.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZR64EF3OpA

    Impoverishing other nations through military conquest is very much in their interest of providing themselves with cheap labour and resources.



    "I spent 33 years and four months in active military service and during that period I spent most of my time as a high class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism.

    I helped make Mexico and especially Tampico safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefit of Wall Street. I helped purify Nicaragua for the International Banking House of Brown Brothers in 1902-1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for the American sugar interests in 1916. I helped make Honduras right for the American fruit companies in 1903. In China in 1927 I helped see to it that Standard Oil went on its way unmolested.

    Looking back on it, I might have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents." -Smedley Butler

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smedley_Butler
     
  19. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    I don't think we are using the world harm in the same sense. Apple sells a product they invented. The can make as much money as the free market can economise. As a matter fact - they should do so. The $450 is the Capital that drives our society forward as it is reinvested productively either paying the inventors to invent new products or invested in other ways.

    Without that $450 we as a society will be going down the gurgler.

    Not to mention no one needs an iPhone. The customer HAPPILY parts with their $650 and walk way with a supercomputer. The very definition of Win-Win. Probably the main problem is pollution in China. In time this will be dealt with just as we did and England before us as they build up Capital and have the means to ship their production elsewhere - more then likely some 3rd world nation with no Capital... .... Michigan? California?

    IMAGINE what wonders we would have if we didn't WASTE Trilions and Trillions on the military. Imagine if we ended rent seeking activities liken State mandatory licensing to work.

    Which goes two your second point which to me is about jobs and wanting them to return. Until we become economical to produce no work will return here.
     
  20. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    Enough people do pay for them though - although tolls and other means could be used as well on the heaviest a used roads.

    The "Government" is just a group of humans. Where do THEY get the Capital to purchase the resources to make and maintain a road? You don't think Corporate taxes add into that? Not to mention income tax is paid BY Corporations in a way as well. It goes through the labourer but is ultimately coughed out of the profits of a Corporation.
     
  21. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    This is a great example of why "Government" is NOT what they think it is. I also think you'll find such blatant "stealing" was condoned by most Nations and their people up until recently.... Now we do this through the Reserve Currency. I wonder what will happen when that little game comes to an end?
     
  22. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    Yes, I do. To repeat:
    I predict our example businessman will continue to locate both himself and his shops in regions where the local government provides him with roads, electrical power grids, sewer systems, the protection of an army and a police force, etc etc etc.
     
  23. Michael 歌舞伎 Valued Senior Member

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    You keep using this word "government" as if it is some magical entity. Government is simply a group of humans. Generally they are unproductive as in they produce nothing (other than paperwork) with the exception of debt, inflation and broken promises. They're a parasite on the body public. So, tell me how these group of humans are able to "provide roads". Tell me, how do THEY do that?

    Secondly, you like to use roads because of the apparent "Free use". How about Trains? Should the shop owner pay for free use of Trains as well? What about airfare - lots of tourist cities, should the shop owners pay for us to come? Free boat rides as well?

    Free Free Free... pile it ALL onto the evil "shopfront" owner. How DARE he offer us cheap eye ware. So very unlike the "Government" which gives us all the free stuff we could ever ask for. Yes, note taken, shop front owner evil, government good. /sarcasm

    How about an online shop? I buy ALL of my eyeware online. I am the one who musts pay for shipping. Should the online shop (many time located in another country) pay for MY use of the roads where I live? Do some poor online ship owner in Thailand owe me the Prodict AND me my FREE roads for the gall of giving my nice cheap eyeware?
     

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